Seph Rodney: It is hard to talk about beauty. But there’s a moment when Michael Jordan was playing. And Jordan was famous for dunking on everybody. He went up for what looked to be a dunk, and he stretched out his hand. We knew that he was just going to dunk it on whoever was underneath him. And then, he did this thing where he just decided not to. And he pulled the ball back. He’s still in the air, tucked it, and then laid it off the glass with his left hand. And it is one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen in my life, ever. And I think there are parallels for me in that there’s this appreciation for the lyricism of the moment. And this is what art does, I think, even better than sports, is that there’s something completely unnecessary in the move. Like, you don’t need to do that.

Hrag Vartanian: Welcome back to the Hyperallergic podcast. Museums are often asking, “How do we get people through our doors? How do we bring people that aren’t always thinking about art to come to an art exhibit?” Today, we’re talking to Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher, who is a curator at SFMOMA in San Francisco, and Seph Rodney, who many of you will remember as a former editor here at Hyperallergic, as well as Senior Critic.

They, along with renowned art historian, Katy Siegel, have put together a massive show at SFMOMA titled Get in the Game that explores the intersection of art and sports. This exhibition appeals to a wide swath of the public that just enjoys the fun of sports and the competition, and hopefully, finds something really relevant in artwork that grapples with that topic. I think the more you think about it, art and sports have so many parallels, like the idea of practice versus natural talent. Athletes and artists both have invisible teams that ensure their success, or push it forward anyway, while museums and arenas both act as stages for their talents. This exhibition is a great opportunity for lovers of sport to explore art in new and interesting ways, not to mention lovers of art to explore new horizons in the world of sport. So, let the games begin.

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Hrag Vartanian: Well, this episode, we have the pleasure of speaking to Seph and Jennifer about their recent show, Get in the Game that just closed at SFMOMA, and is now touring to Crystal Bridges in Arkansas, and then the Perez in Miami. Welcome, Jennifer. Welcome, Seph.

Seph Rodney: Hi.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Hi. Thank you.

Hrag Vartanian: Well, okay, so this is the book that accompanies the show, and it’s not a conventional catalog. I’d love to first of all ask about that decision.

Seph Rodney: We actually made a point that we did not want a catalog. It is actually not a catalog. It is a book that accompanies the exhibition because, well, one, the show is kind of a departure for SFMOMA. It is the largest show that they’ve made to date, and it’s one of the most populist. It meant from the outset to attract the kinds of people who typically don’t go to museum shows. And I think the book is an extension of that desire for that kind of audience. It’s not going to be a typical catalog with a bunch of academic talking heads, but rather something that would speak to almost anyone.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I think the intersection of art and sports is something that we leaned in on for the exhibition, for the exhibition design, and for the publication. What does it feel like to be in a sports arena? What does it feel like to be in a museum? Who were athletes before they were artists? Who actually were artists before they were athletes? So, it was interesting to learn how much overlap there was when we initially thought it might be a bit more antagonistic.

Seph Rodney: Right.

Hrag Vartanian: Really?

Seph Rodney: Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: So, explain that. I am curious why you thought it would be.

Seph Rodney: Well, I think a thing that Katy said, which was not entirely accurate-

Hrag Vartanian: And Katy, of course, is the third curator of this project who couldn’t make it today.

Seph Rodney: Right. Katy Siegel. She said, “Well, you know, we’re not sports people.” And Jennifer was like, “Well, actually I kind of am.” And I was like, “I am.” I fenced for like 14 years. I grew up watching basketball, and it’s still one of my favorite sports to watch. And lately I’ve become more of a bit of a tennis fan. But I think Katy initially thought that the kinds of people who go to museum shows and are really willing to engage in the deep...I’m going to use the word academic again, but sometimes obscure subjects are not the typical people you would find at a stadium. And I mean, the podcast publication is called Bad at Sports, literally, because the people who produce that think that people who care about art are going to be bad at sports.

Hrag Vartanian: Right, right. That’s the stereotype, right?

Seph Rodney: Totally.

Hrag Vartanian: That it’s like the person who couldn’t play sports ends up in art class and drama class. Right?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Right.

Seph Rodney: The theater kids. Right, right.

Hrag Vartanian: Right. The theater kids. The art kids. It’s a whole antagonism. I guess you’re also pointing at the fact that people often perceive an antagonism, and the catalog in the show kind of demonstrates actually there are a lot of similarities. And that comes up in the book quite a bit.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: So many similarities and parallels.

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah. So, how would you characterize some of those, Jennifer?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Well, Gary Simmons was talking about his father, who was an athlete...

Seph Rodney: Yeah, he played cricket.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: ... he really imparted a sense of practice and dedication to discipline. He specifically was telling us a story about how he puts on his sneakers every day before he goes to the studio. And he’s there at the same time. And he calls it “practice.” You’re constantly practicing, and then you’re ready for the big game or the big exhibition. And those parallels kept coming up both from athletes and artists.

Seph Rodney: And there’s a structural parallel too, in that the person who illustrated the book AJ Dungo has skating in his background, and I think surfing in his background, too.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Right.

Seph Rodney: So, when we were actually vetting people to try to figure out who we choose to illustrate the book, when we talked to AJ and he revealed that about himself, we were like, “Bingo. Score.”

Hrag Vartanian: Right. There you are!

Seph Rodney: Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: There are a number of lines, like one from Megan Rapinoe’s essay, “Everyone could learn something from athletes and artists about laying it all on the line, whatever their goal may be. Find something that inspires you to fight and to live a more expansive life, something that you want to keep coming back to, even though it makes you uncomfortable and requires you to put all of yourself out there.”

And that’s not the only parallel. Whether it’s athletes being called the Pollock or the Picasso, and also the discussion of the museum as an arena, which I thought was really, really important. And that also ties in, maybe, to why protests have become so active in museums. Because I think they’re seen as a venue where people’s attention is focused.

And then, you know, one other thing that comes up in the book that I think is really important is how both sports and art mask the labor of what they do, right? You know, it’s like you think you see it. And you’re like, “Oh, that must just be so easy,” or whatever. But it actually masks the fact that there’s a lifetime of learning and practice that goes into that. And sports are the same. I wonder if both of you can comment a little about that hidden labor in sports and art.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: We had a couple of audience questions, such as “Would you rather have a sneaker deal or a championship trophy?” And one of them that surprised me was, “Talent or practice?”

Seph Rodney: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And overwhelmingly, the audience chose practice.

Seph Rodney: Oh, wow.

Hrag Vartanian: Really?

Seph Rodney: I did not...I don’t think I knew that.

Hrag Vartanian: Wait, wait. Explain that. So, they got to choose? I mean, what was that exactly?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: “What do you admire more?” Or, “What do you think I think gets you further?”

Hrag Vartanian: Right. And so practice was the one that people chose?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Which I was surprised by.

Seph Rodney: Well, it kind of does make sense. Because I think most people in the world realize that people who are truly gifted, like the LeBron James types of the world, they’re one in a million.

Hrag Vartanian: Right.

Seph Rodney: Almost literally, one in a million. I think people think, “Well, at least practice can give me the leg up. Practice can give me a foot in the door. I may not be LeBron, but I can practice to get to the point where I’m half LeBron.”

Hrag Vartanian: Well, I think also, a lot of us know people who have the talent, but without the practice they’ve never gone anywhere.

Seph Rodney: That’s also true.

Hrag Vartanian: I mean, I think that at least in the art field, we see lots of people with talent, right? But, if you don’t show up on time, if you’re not doing the stuff, you’re not handing in on deadline, you’re not going to have a career. So, I feel like that gave me an in. I’m one of those people that’s not very sports oriented. So, for me, it sort of made me think about that. I was like, “Oh, right. The part that we don’t see is actually the real work.”

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Right.

Seph Rodney: And there’s another parallel I want to point out. In both professions, people talk a really good game. Like, artist statements? Ooh. The bane of my life. That kind of...pretentious international art speak. And then, you see the work, and you’re like, “Really? This was it?”
And I think the same for sports. You can listen to sports commentary, read Skip Bayless’s column and whatever, but despite the game that is being talked, when you step up to the plate, that’s where the rubber hits the road. You either strike out or you hit it out of the park.

Hrag Vartanian: That’s right.

Seph Rodney: Or there’s a few other things in between. I think the same thing about art. You can talk a really good game, but when I show up in the gallery, what does your work look like?

Hrag Vartanian: Exactly. Exactly right.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And that’s what Rapinoe was really...It is such a moment of vulnerability.

Seph Rodney: For sure.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And that’s something I think viewers forget, too. You know, the sideline coach, like “Get back out there!”

[All laugh]

Hrag Vartanian: Well, I like that too, because the truth is for somebody in art, like there’s a team around them, right? It’s not a solo endeavor. Like we love to talk about the sort of the individual—

Seph Rodney: Genius, yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: The genius. And I mean it’s in sports, too, as well as other things. But it’s never really quite that way.

Seph Rodney: So, just to go back to the example of LeBron, he has a strength and conditioning coach. He says that he has a shooting coach. He has the person who gives him massages after the game. He says that he spends a million dollars on his body every year.

Hrag Vartanian: Wow. Okay.

Seph Rodney: That’s a lot of people.

Hrag Vartanian: That’s a lot of people.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And he’s the first and last at practice, apparently.

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah. Well, I mean, I could see that. An artist would probably spend that much on their studio, right? It’s kind of similar.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Material, labor...

Hrag Vartanian: The material, the labor, exactly. All these different parts.

So, now let’s talk about the exhibition. 15,000 square feet. Not a small exhibition. The largest one SFMOMA has done as of yet.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: We filled it.

Hrag Vartanian: You filled it, right? 200 artworks and design objects, over 70 artists and designers. What do you want people to know about the show? What is some of the thinking? Can you give us a little bit of a peek behind the curtain? Seph, do you want to start?

Seph Rodney: Well, I’d prefer to defer to my colleague, Jennifer, because she’s frankly smarter than me, but...

Hrag Vartanian: Jennifer, you’re on the hot chair.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I think we wanted the discovery. We wanted people who were interested in art, who maybe come to the museum anyway, to look a little more seriously at sports, and the sports fans to also look a little more deeply at sports, but also maybe discover art, in a way. So, I think it was, “What could we introduce to either community?”

Seph Rodney: Exactly.

Hrag Vartanian: So, what is it that you wanted them to feel? What did you want them to empathize with in the show?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: That really came through with the exhibition design and also some of the choices. We had two interactive works, one by Maurizio Cattelan, a 22-player foosball table.

Hrag Vartanian: Right. The famous extended foosball table.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And then, another Gabriel Orozco’s ping pong table.

Hrag Vartanian: Right.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Most museums might have put them in a separate gallery. We wanted them right in the middle of all the other works. This was a challenge for the museum.
And also, we really thought about sound as a component. As soon as you get off the elevators, you hear the roar of the crowd, and it pulls you through the space. And we noticed that that actually just makes a much more casual environment. People were talking animatedly with each other, and then they discovered that they can actually try out a game. Even someone who had never played sports. And that came up a number of times, where someone was a bit hesitant to try out the tables, and then really got into it and got very competitive.

[All laugh]

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And they’re like, “Now I get it.”

Hrag Vartanian: Of course they did!

Seph Rodney: I think that Jennifer and Katy and I are all well-read on the failings of the contemporary museum, and we really wanted to make a show that kind of plugged up those holes. So, when we talked about participation, we talked about engagement a lot. “How do we get the people to be engaged? How do we get them to come and stay and have fun and think deeply about things?” So, we all were kind of locked in on that being a critical part of the exhibition.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I think that was also the first time the museum had given over the entire seventh floor to one exhibition. So, when you got off the elevator, you could go left, right, forwards, backwards. And we realized there would be some cacophony. We wanted it to feel a little bit like arriving at the stadium. You don’t know where your seat is yet. There’s noise. There’s people barking at you to buy merch. You’re asking, “Where are the restrooms?” And then, you enter into the art spaces. But we wanted to embrace that feeling of being a little disorienting.

Hrag Vartanian: Would you agree with that, Seph? Is that the way you felt, too?

Seph Rodney: Totally. I mean, one of the things I think that’s great about the exhibition is precisely that feeling that you can go left or right, forward, or backward, and you’re still going to find something that you like.

Hrag Vartanian: But I often think of stadiums and museums opposite that way. Stadiums are overstimulating. Museums can often be about slowing down. But it sounds like that’s something that you wanted to sort of play with in this show too, like, sort of the cacophony, as you mentioned, is kind of very stimulating. Is that right?

Seph Rodney: It was very stimulating. But we also designed different kinds of galleries, different kinds of environments. So, the one that’s sort of behind the elevator-

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: “Mind and Body?”

Seph Rodney: Right. The threshold for it was this humongous curtain made by Felandus Thames, which has an image of Allen Iverson, the basketball player.

Hrag Vartanian: Got it. Yep.

Seph Rodney: And you go into that, and there’s a sort of dark cavern, and there’s work in there by Savanah Leaf and by Alejandra Carles-Tolra...

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And Shaun Leonardo, Andrea Bowers...

Seph Rodney: Yeah. And that place is much more contemplative. That place is a place where actually we are asking people to really slow down. Savanah Leaf’s film is very much that. It’s very contemplative and slow.

Hrag Vartanian: Got it. So, you’re playing with those registers, it sounds like.

Seph Rodney: Definitely.

Hrag Vartanian: Okay. So, one of the themes that I love that you explored is fandom. And for me, fandom in sports is often, I guess, associated with the most toxic part of sports, right? Or at least, when I think about that, say European soccer, or I think of some of the fights or whatever, among the fans afterwards when they win.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: The passion. Yes.

Hrag Vartanian: The passion, right, that ripples out into the street.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Yes.

Hrag Vartanian: I mean, it’s positive, but there’s also this sort of darker part of fandom.

Seph Rodney: For sure, for sure.

Hrag Vartanian: Tell me a little bit about what you learned about fandom and the art that’s sort of associated with this. Thoughts?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: So many thoughts on this one.

Hrag Vartanian: Let’s hear them. Because I’m fascinated by fandoms.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: This one is such a deep section of the exhibition. There were artists who talked about the locations where sports are hotly debated, whether it’s the sports bar, the barbershop. And then there’s the code, the clothing code.

Hrag Vartanian: Right! What color?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: “Oh, you’re wearing blue and orange. I know what that means.”

Hrag Vartanian: Right.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And all the signifiers through your shoes, through your jersey, through the clothes that you wear, the obsession with the trading cards. And a couple of artists were picking up on that, the little tiny moments of art. And Steph and I spoke often about the operatic drama of watching sports, because we’re both sports fans. How crushing it can be if you see the injury list and your player goes down...

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah, drama was also one of the themes, right, kind of?

Seph Rodney: It’s just a running thread throughout the exhibition.

Hrag Vartanian: Gotcha. Now, let’s talk about your favorite artwork or the artwork that became your favorite. I know it’s hard, so you can’t pick from all your children in the show, right?

Seph Rodney: We love all our children. [Laughs]

Hrag Vartanian: But I’m wondering if there’s a work that sort of helped you think through this exhibit. Is there an artwork that you’d like to talk about that might resonate for you?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Can I lump a few together?

Hrag Vartanian: Please do.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Because we definitely want to show the beauty of watching sports, through works like Ernie Barnes’ paintings. I mean, the elegance of going for a layup and it looks like a ballet, or the celebration of Cara Erskine’s hockey players. But I was surprised at how much I appreciated, and how much visitors appreciated, opportunities to go to the dark side of sports with Savanah Leaf, or Jake Troyli, who definitely had positive experiences—Jake Troyli was a D1 basketball player, and Savanah Leaf was an Olympian—but also felt a little bit like a product. And their works are very different. Jake Troyli did a beautiful painting of systems of oppression as an aspect of being an athlete. And then, Savanah showed very emotionally, beautifully in a film this system of data analytics, of a scientist kind of hooking up and really studying her body and then her child’s body for performance. “How much performance can I get out of this human?” And people really responded to those works and appreciated the opportunity.

Hrag Vartanian: Well, they like to see the hero and the antihero, the darker side of what the hero can be. Right? You know, it’s sort of like that deep psychological kind of shadow. How about you, Seph?

Seph Rodney: I am going to talk about just one work. Alejandra Carles-Tolra. Oh, what was the title for that, Jennifer?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: The Bears.

Seph Rodney: The Bears. Thank you. It’s a very long photograph of a scrum, a rugby scrum, and they’re women playing the sport. And there are two small women who are pretty visible, who are sort of tucked in among the bandaged and bruised legs of their compatriots. And I love that photograph because it gets at the power of athletes, but it does that by way of turning the tables on this idea of femininity, which is typically in our culture about being dainty. It’s about being weaker. It’s about being passive. And Alejandra has made these women just bruised and battered warriors.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: But they’re so strong.

Seph Rodney: Yes. And you can feel that in the photograph.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Yeah. The strength and the vulnerability all in one photo.

Seph Rodney: For sure. And you know that they’re getting beat up on the field because you can see the bruises on them, but they’re in the game. And I think that’s one of the most powerful pieces in the whole exhibition.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And they’re together. It’s a real community. You feel the team.

Seph Rodney: Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: So, Jennifer, tell me a little bit about the sports you watch and what keeps you watching? What is it about it? And then, do you see similarities with art? Because, I mean, you work on architecture and design. Do you see the same kind of drive? Do you feel the same, or do they come from different parts of your brain?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: A little bit of both.

Hrag Vartanian: Okay.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I think mostly different parts. I definitely am guilty of the armchair coaching and kind of love that. Yes, I follow basketball, also tennis. But I do follow Formula 1 because of the design.

Hrag Vartanian: Oh!

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I am so fascinated by those cars. It is just peak, peak design and engineering. And for me, it’s the car. It’s all about the car there.

Hrag Vartanian: Really? So, that makes a big difference?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: Wow. And how about you, Seph? Are they different parts of the brain for you, or do you see them overlapping a lot?

Seph Rodney: Well, there is some overlap definitely in the area of beauty. I mean, it is hard to talk about beauty. But there’s a moment when Michael Jordan was playing—and this is the ’90s—and Jordan was famous for dunking on everybody. You know, they called him “His airness,” “Air Jordan.” He went up for what looked to be a dunk, and he stretched out his hand. The rim was at his forearm, and he knew that he was just going to dunk it on whoever was underneath him. And then, he did this thing where he just decided not to. And he pulled the ball back. He’s still in the air. He tucked it and then laid it off the glass with his left hand.

And it is one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever seen in my life, ever. And I think there are parallels for me in that in that there’s this appreciation for the lyricism of the moment. And this is what art does, I think even better than sports, is that there’s something completely unnecessary in the move. Like, you don’t need to do that.

Hrag Vartanian: So, it’s not as functional.

Seph Rodney: Precisely.

Hrag Vartanian: Right. So, would you argue he was the closest to quote unquote “being an artist” for you in terms of sports?

Seph Rodney: No, not the closest.

Hrag Vartanian: Who’s the closest? Who’d be the closest for you?

Seph Rodney: Oh, that’s too hard. I can’t answer that. I mean, there are fencers. I’ve seen fencers who make a lunge a thing of beauty.

Hrag Vartanian: Right.

Seph Rodney: And I would call that artistic. So, no. He’s not the only one. But I think the parallels to me are definitely an appreciation for the thing that is lyrically lovely.

Hrag Vartanian: I love how you describe that.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: A word that we have talked about before too, is unpredictability, and that is part of the addiction, what keeps us coming back, even though the game is the same. Or maybe we’ve seen that artist’s work before, but they can surprise you in some way, “How did they pull that out?” That is what keeps us coming back.

Seph Rodney: Yeah, agreed.

Hrag Vartanian: Are there any artists you kind of like, “Wow, they’re kind of like an athlete, the way they investigate this?”

I love that I’m perplexing the two of you.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I know. [Laughs]

Hrag Vartanian: [Laughs] You’re like, “Oh, God. One part of the show’s done, but now…”

Seph Rodney: This is a tough one.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I guess I was surprised how many of the artists were athletes. There were 24 out of the 70 who were athletes. And that did really surprise me.

Seph Rodney: Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: Why? Why did it surprise you? Is it because we just naturally think of them as separate?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I guess so. Or just how serious they were, too. I mean, having Olympians, Junior Olympians, D1... those are some serious athletes. A decision had to be made at some point of going towards art.

Hrag Vartanian: Right, right.

Seph Rodney: Yeah. Shaun Leonardo used to play football. And his work is particularly relevant to that because he’s examining X-ray renderings of athletes’ brains that have been damaged by CTE.

Hrag Vartanian: Right. Yeah, the danger, the darker part of this sort of story.
Surprising reactions to the show, Jennifer? What were some of the biggest surprises for you?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: People wanting to touch all the art. People wanting to punch the punching bags or drive the Formula 1 steering wheel.

Seph Rodney: Right, right.

Hrag Vartanian: So, there’s a lot of that? I can see that. People would be like, “Why can’t I punch this punching bag? Do you know?”

Seph Rodney: Well, you can’t because there happens to be, like, a very carefully applied, hand-drawn quote from Muhammad Ali on it.

Hrag Vartanian: Right.

Seph Rodney: It’d be kind of obliterated if you did that.

Hrag Vartanian: Right, right, right. Have there been a lot of kids that have come through the show because of the theme?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Yeah, lots of kids. Lots of people in athletic gear.

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah? Yeah. Did you trick any of them into being artists now?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I think every time we get a kid into the museum that the trick is working.

Seph Rodney: Yes.

[All laugh]

Hrag Vartanian: I mean, I definitely feel more of a sense of conformity with sports. Maybe that’s my own stereotype, but there feels like, at least a certain level of sports, there feels like there’s more conformity.

Seph Rodney: No, that makes sense. I mean, the games have rules. Although my former professor, Steve Connor, he wrote this book on sports. And I think in his book, he says something like, “One of the things that athletes are always trying to do is to go to the very edge of the rules, like just skirt the boundaries.” And those are the ones who are actually the most creative, and the ones we tend to want to watch the most. But yeah, I mean there’s conformity, precisely because the game takes place in a certain field of play, and it has certain boundaries and it has certain—

Hrag Vartanian: Rules.

Seph Rodney: Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: That’s right. So, Seph, I’m going to lean into your critic side a little bit now. What do you think about the subjectivity versus objectivity part of this? Is art more subjective? Is sports more objective? We talk about the rules, but I wonder about that relationship in the way we deal with art or sports.

Seph Rodney: Well, yes, and...I mean, so the way I think I want to answer this is to say at the highest levels of the game, sports really stops being objective. It starts out objective at the sort of basic level. And then, as you reach higher levels of sophistication, you get more and more subjective. Again, like that example of Michael Jordan, like reaching back and laying the ball off the glass with his left hand, right?

Hrag Vartanian: Right. That’s a great example of that. Because the easy thing would have been to just get the point, not to do this special thing.

Seph Rodney: Right, exactly. And then, you know, watching Roger Federer hit a tweener between his legs. At a certain level, it stops being really objective.

Hrag Vartanian: Right.

Seph Rodney: But I think that art kind of starts off subjective, and actually it’s kind of the opposite. It gets more and more sophisticated. It becomes really clear to almost everyone in the room that they’ve done something amazing.

Hrag Vartanian: Oh, that’s interesting. I could see that, almost this reverse, where you get to a certain level of art, and most people will probably agree it’s a good artwork. They may not like it, but they can still at least agree that there’s something there.

Seph Rodney: Right. There’s something there.

Hrag Vartanian: So, I’m going to have a final question, but is there something we haven’t covered that you think would be significant for art audiences? I’m guessing it’s going to be mostly art audiences and not sports audiences, but you never know who is watching this and listening to this. Is there an aspect of the show that you think you’d like to talk about?

Seph Rodney: Just one thing I think we haven’t talked about, and this is near and dear to all of us, which is the political aspect of sports. And we talked a lot, ad infinitum, about how we wanted to get across that with the kinds of revolutions that were happening in society, you would see them happening in sports almost always first. Jesse Owens, the 1968 Olympics with Tommy Smith and John Carlos, Catherine Switzer integrating the Boston Marathon in 1967. What’s her name, tearing off her football jersey?

Hrag Vartanian: Brandi Chastain.

Seph Rodney: Yes. The Canadian hockey players, the women’s team celebrating on ice, drinking champagne out of the bottle. All these things are moments of real freedom, real possibility, just like birth into the world among people of color, among women, among people who have formerly not been considered to be the leaders of a culture, of a society. And so, we talked a lot about that being really crucial to the exhibition, to make sure that we told that story in a really...not explicitly, but implicitly...you can see that throughout the exhibition.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Sometimes explicitly, I think, like Kota Ezawa, looking at the quiet first moment of Colin Kaepernick taking a knee and then making a video that showed the momentum that was gained until the culmination of the full team taking the knee, even the owner. So yeah, sometimes it was right out there.

Seph Rodney: Yeah, and Megan talks about that in her forward to the book. Colin Kaepernick was a real inspiration for her.

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah, absolutely. So, I wanted to ask each of you to ask the other person a question you’ve wanted to ask about the show or perhaps the reception or some of the ideas that have percolated. So, I wonder if there’s a question that each of you would like to ask the other person.

Seph Rodney: Have you gotten back to playing tennis yet?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: No, I have not.

Seph Rodney: I know that Jennifer loves to play tennis, and we commiserated with each other because we both have knee issues.

Hrag Vartanian: Of course.

Seph Rodney: I’m genuinely wondering if you’ve gotten back to playing yet.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: No, I haven’t.

Hrag Vartanian: Do you have a question?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: One day I’ll call you, and we’ll play.

Seph Rodney: Okay.

Hrag Vartanian: Any question on your end?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: I guess going back to the very beginning of our conversations, Seph, when we were learning about your interest in transforming the museum space. And now that you worked on it, and you experienced this exhibition, did it do something that you had hoped, that it might get us slightly closer to a different museum experience?

Hrag Vartanian: Ooh, good question.

Seph Rodney: Yeah, it did. In short, it did. In fact, when I think about the exhibition, I actually ended up comparing it in my head to Edges of Ailey, which I just saw at the Whitney.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Oh, I did, too.

Seph Rodney: Yeah, yeah. It’s closed now, but it was such a dynamic, enthralling, engaging show that when I stepped off the elevator, again, I had that thing where I thought, “I don’t know which way to go. Like I can just go any direction.” And it’s all kind of going to be like, “Wow.” I felt like we had some of that. Actually, that’s probably the primary reason the show is traveling, is because it does that. It really does really kind of engage people intellectually, orally, visually—

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Physically.

Seph Rodney: Yes, physically, yes. All the things that we are as human beings, they can come and, well, “get in the game.”

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Not just with your eyes.

Hrag Vartanian: Love that. So, would you say that the exhibit is a little bit of a choose your own adventure that way? Because I’ve noticed a trend in museum exhibitions that they used to be much more dogmatic about the way you flowed through them, and they feel much more open now. Edges of Ailey is a great example of that. And now this exhibition, as well. Was that conscious?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Yes. We invite that, and know that even if you see 10%, you will have gleaned something from the exhibition and go where you want to go. Follow the sport. Follow the sounds.

Seph Rodney: Right.

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah, absolutely. And Seph, did it make you think differently about museums in general, because you’re used to reviewing them rather than curating them?

Seph Rodney: I think that it did not, because I fundamentally believe in museums. Like I was a kid who was saved by museums.

Hrag Vartanian: Right. And you also did a PhD in museums, to be fair. It’s not like you knew nothing about them.

Seph Rodney: Right. But that kind of study could have actually engendered in me the opposite response, right? But for me, museums will continue to be, have been and will continue to be the places where imaginative adventures can be realized. I still fundamentally believe that.

Hrag Vartanian: Beautiful.

Seph Rodney: I was really lucky, being a kid who had no visual art in my family’s background or experience, but I went to a museum. And it was an art museum, and it was life changing. And I still feel like it’s still transformative.

Hrag Vartanian: Yeah.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: See, it takes a museum visit.

Hrag Vartanian: It does sometimes, right?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: And look at what it does to a kid. Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: It does. It really does. You know, and I guess sports kind of have similar thing for some people, too.

Seph Rodney: For sure.

Hrag Vartanian: It has that kind of the spark, you know? And, Jennifer, I know you work a lot with architecture and design and other aspects. Did it help you understand the sports arena in a different way in terms of its similarities to the museum, or differences even?

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: It’s more in its differences. I didn’t realize that sports arenas began with the WPA as a place for public gatherings.

Hrag Vartanian: So, during the New Deal.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Right. And not necessarily for sports, just a public forum, a place to gather. And maybe in that regard, I consider museums to be that space, as well. So, maybe that’s where they come together. Although the contemporary sports arena might be a little bit more...

Hrag Vartanian: Well, I think nothing’s pure. They’re all sort of different creatures now, and they’ve sort of morphed just like the art world, I guess.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Yes.

Hrag Vartanian: But it is interesting to see that similarity with the WPA in that era.

Well, thank you, both of you, Jennifer and Seph, for joining us and talking about your exhibition, Get in the Game: Sports, Art, Culture. And so, there is a catalog, and the exhibition will be traveling. And congratulations.

Seph Rodney: Thank you.

Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher: Thank you for your interest.

Seph Rodney: Thank you for having us.

Hrag Vartanian: Of course.

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Hrag Vartanian: Thanks so much for listening to the Hyperallergic Podcast. This episode was produced by Isabella Segalovich, and it was made possible, like all Hyperallergic podcast episodes, by Hyperallergic sponsors. So, thank you, all of you who are Hyperallergic members. Please consider becoming a Hyperallergic member for only $8 a month or $80 a year because it allows us to tell the stories people want to hear in an independent and fearless way.

My name is Hrag Vartanian. I’m the co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of Hyperallergic. Thanks so much for listening. See you next time.