Hrag Vartanian: 00:00

So what are some of the things that maybe someone like Clement Greenberg taught you about art in general that maybe people may not know about? Or maybe there because there are a lot of stereotypes about who he was and and what he did.

Karen Wilkin: 00:12

The problem with Clem is that while he was a brilliant critic and a very good writer, he could be a truly loathsome human being. I think what put me over the edge was I was in Knoedler Gallery looking at something, and Clem came in. And I hear someone behind I didn't know it was Clem. And I hear somebody saying, I know those legs. And I thought, that's the only thing he can recognize in the yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 00:39

Yeah. And, I told Michael Fried, who had stopped talking to him a long time before that. And I told Michael I'd stop talking to Clem. He said, what what took you so long?

Hrag Vartanian: 00:54

Hello, and welcome back to the Hyperallergic podcast. I'm Hanag Bartanyan, the editor in chief and cofounder of Hyperallergic. Today, we're talking with Karen Wilkin. She's the head of art history at the New York Studio School and also an incisive and thoughtful critic. She's a contributing editor for art at the Hudson Review and also contributes regularly to New Criterion, The Wall Street Journal, and others.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19

And she's also written monographs on artists including Paul Cezanne, Georges Braque, Giorgio Morandi, Stuart Davis, Anthony Caro, and Helen Frankenthaler, among others. And one of the things we discovered during this conversation is her background in ballet and how that informs her own understanding of sculpture and space in general. Now I wanna mention how special this interview is for me because Karen Wilkin is the person who introduced the concept of art criticism to me back in college. Yep. She was my professor.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:51

And what was wonderful about that is before I met her, I didn't know people did that for a living or could anyway. Not that there are many of us. Through her eyes, I saw that there is a world of people who regularly look at art and engage with artists and movements of all kinds. I will always be thankful to her for exposing me to this wondrous new world that I'm still part of today. I think it's safe to say if I hadn't met Karen Welkin, I don't think I would have been an art critic.

Hrag Vartanian: 02:23

So thanks, Karen. You may also be interested that during the interview, I also learned a couple of things about Clement Greenberg that you'll probably wanna hear. So let's get started because I'm eager to share this conversation with you. Well, today, I get to speak to somebody who has been a formative influence on me and is probably the person who introduced art criticism to me as a profession, as a as a way of seeing, as a as a history, so many things. So Karen Wilkins is with us, and I couldn't be happier.

Hrag Vartanian: 03:05

Hi Karen.

Karen Wilkin: 03:06

Hi. It's a delight to see you.

Hrag Vartanian: 03:09

Well, as

Karen Wilkin: 03:10

it was all those years

Hrag Vartanian: 03:12

ago. All those years ago, right? I mean at this point, it's 30 years ago. Well, we won't say. Worst count.

Hrag Vartanian: 03:19

Yeah. That's right. Exactly. It was all it was all, another era. So I wanted to talk to you finally to a little bit about your life and and and the work you've done through the years.

Hrag Vartanian: 03:32

You know, a lot of people know your writing. They know your ideas. They know the fantastic artists that you've championed through the years as well as been critical of and, written in so many different ways for different venues. But I'd like I'd like people to get to know a little bit of Karen Wilkin. Who is Karen Wilkins?

Hrag Vartanian: 03:51

So I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your formative years.

Karen Wilkin: 03:56

Well, I'm a native New Yorker and a native Manhattanite,

Hrag Vartanian: 04:01

which

Karen Wilkin: 04:01

is very rare.

Hrag Vartanian: 04:02

Very rare. Was my father. And you still are in Manhattan.

Karen Wilkin: 04:06

I still am. I've lived in a lot of other places, but I came back in 86, and I'm not going anywhere. And they'll carry me out.

Hrag Vartanian: 04:16

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 04:16

And my grandfather lived in Manhattan also. And grandparents lived in Manhattan. Although, they were not born here, they were born in what is now, Belarus.

Hrag Vartanian: 04:27

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 04:29

So I have a a long history with Manhattan. I I come to Brooklyn, obviously.

Hrag Vartanian: 04:35

Well, we thank you for that. And so what was man Manhattan like growing up? And what is a part of that history that I think people today may have may not know or may have lost knowledge of?

Karen Wilkin: 04:51

Well, anyone who's not as old as I am, and most people aren't these days, which comes as a shock, doesn't remember a time when New York City kids could travel around the city by themselves.

Hrag Vartanian: 05:05

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 05:06

I mean, by the time I was in 6th grade, I I was a very serious, ballet student at that point, and I could travel to my ballet classes myself.

Hrag Vartanian: 05:17

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 05:19

And, you know, kids aren't allowed to do that anymore.

Hrag Vartanian: 05:21

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 05:22

So and I wasn't the only one. My my friends from school and I would be traveling around. And when you are at an age when you're discovering the place you live, New York quite a wonderful place to do it.

Hrag Vartanian: 05:35

I bet. And so if I remember, you grew up around where we call Turtle Bay nowadays, or where where did you where did you grow up?

Karen Wilkin: 05:43

Central Park West.

Hrag Vartanian: 05:45

Oh, Central Park West. There we are.

Karen Wilkin: 05:47

There we

Hrag Vartanian: 05:47

are. There we are.

Karen Wilkin: 05:49

Actually, when when we were moving back here, I was living in Toronto when my husband, who is an architect, decided that he didn't wanna work in Toronto anymore. He wanted to come come to New York. And I the only thing I said is I do not wanna live on the upper west side.

Hrag Vartanian: 06:11

You were done.

Karen Wilkin: 06:12

I had had that.

Hrag Vartanian: 06:13

You were done. It was it was it was it was finished for you.

Karen Wilkin: 06:16

Definitely.

Hrag Vartanian: 06:17

So tell us a little bit about those those years. Where where were your first experiences with art?

Karen Wilkin: 06:24

Well, my parents collected a little bit.

Hrag Vartanian: 06:26

Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 06:27

In fact, I inherited a very, very beautiful Alfred Maurer gouache from them. They had friends who collected. I also inherited an early Kandinsky woodcut, which they had been given by another friend. Mostly, they had writer friends. And that means every single bookcase I have is double loaded because I have two copies of everything by my parents' friends, one dedicated to them and one dedicated to me.

Karen Wilkin: 06:58

Aw. And I've gotta do something about that.

Hrag Vartanian: 07:01

Yeah. That's well, that's that's that's kind of beautiful.

Karen Wilkin: 07:04

A lot of writers and, but I wasn't allowed to go to museums.

Hrag Vartanian: 07:09

Why?

Karen Wilkin: 07:09

My parents didn't think that children should go to museums. So by the time that I finally got to go to a museum, I really wanted to be there.

Hrag Vartanian: 07:21

Wait. So why would they think is it because of the nudity? Was it I mean No.

Karen Wilkin: 07:26

I think they probably thought children in museums were annoying to other people as you know they are.

Hrag Vartanian: 07:31

Well, that's kinda true, isn't it? Oh. Though I think museums have changed a lot since then.

Karen Wilkin: 07:36

They have. They have. But, no, I remember being finally allowed to I mean, I I wasn't, you know, old. I must have been, what, 8, 10, something like that. But younger than that, I wasn't allowed to go.

Karen Wilkin: 07:49

It was a Mattish show at MoMA. Oh, wow. I was ravished.

Hrag Vartanian: 07:55

Wow. That's quite a quite a wonderful first exhibition. Yep. Do you what do you remember about that show?

Karen Wilkin: 08:03

I can still see those pictures, but I don't know whether it's because I know them now.

Hrag Vartanian: 08:07

You know? Right.

Karen Wilkin: 08:08

Because I've I've spent so much time looking at Matisse. Yep. Because I remember when John Elderfield did the incredible 1992 show when he filled the whole building with Matisse, the day of the press preview, there were the bunch of us standing outside champing at the bit and ran in. And, you know, like, 6 hours later, I came out. And I remember a totally involuntary thought as I walked out.

Karen Wilkin: 08:35

I haven't wasted my life.

Hrag Vartanian: 08:37

Wow. I love that.

Karen Wilkin: 08:39

Oh, that that was an amazing show.

Hrag Vartanian: 08:41

So what were some of the first reactions? Were you like, wow. I can't wait to go back? Do you think like, what

Karen Wilkin: 08:48

I was very excited about it. I also thought I wanna try to do that.

Hrag Vartanian: 08:53

Oh, wow. Yeah. And so MoMA at that time was much smaller.

Karen Wilkin: 08:57

Much smaller. Not only was MoMA much smaller, but pursuant to what I was saying about kids being allowed to travel around New York by themselves, my friends and I from high school and maybe maybe even from elementary school, we would go. And I knew every inch of that place. I knew where everything was in the old building.

Hrag Vartanian: 09:20

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 09:21

We all did.

Hrag Vartanian: 09:22

That's amazing. So now There

Karen Wilkin: 09:24

were never any people. You could go and sit in front of the, Monet Water Lilies by yourself forever.

Hrag Vartanian: 09:31

And not anymore. Not anymore. Not anymore.

Karen Wilkin: 09:34

So get me started on MOMA and the permanent collection.

Hrag Vartanian: 09:37

I will get you started. If you wanna talk about it, I would love to. But It's

Karen Wilkin: 09:41

an abomination, really.

Hrag Vartanian: 09:43

I'm with you. It's an airport, honestly. It feels like an airport to me.

Karen Wilkin: 09:47

Well, there's no coherence. No. And it I mean, that's built in. The new Dillard and Scofidio galleries all have multiple doors.

Hrag Vartanian: 09:56

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 09:56

So there's no preferred pathway. There's no sequence. And there's no relationship from gallery to gallery. So it's chaos.

Hrag Vartanian: 10:06

So fast forward a little bit. In high school, how did your relationship to art change?

Karen Wilkin: 10:12

I went to the High School of Music and Art, which is now part of LaGuardia.

Hrag Vartanian: 10:17

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 10:19

Then it was a very rigorous academic school that had extra programs or extra classes in either music or art. And LaGuardia was the amalgamation of music and art with performing arts

Hrag Vartanian: 10:36

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 10:36

Which was always considered a vocational school.

Hrag Vartanian: 10:39

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 10:40

So the academic standards were different. Got it. And in fact, now the alumni association has some die hards from the old days who were, you know, trying to keep it up.

Hrag Vartanian: 10:51

And where was LaGuardia then?

Karen Wilkin: 10:53

Then it was on the City College campus.

Hrag Vartanian: 10:55

Oh, got it.

Karen Wilkin: 10:56

It was a a building with towers

Hrag Vartanian: 10:59

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 11:00

And a sort of neo gothic

Hrag Vartanian: 11:03

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 11:04

And a big bust of fille arla la Guardia in the lobby. And an absolutely amazing group of kids.

Hrag Vartanian: 11:13

I mean So high school for you was sort of a lot of exposure to the arts.

Karen Wilkin: 11:18

Absolutely.

Hrag Vartanian: 11:19

And painting was an integral part of that?

Karen Wilkin: 11:21

You had well, you painted the first semester. Oh. And then they figured, well, you've gotten that desire to use paint and color out of your system. Now we'll get serious. Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 11:35

So after that, there were drawing. There was a design course taught by a woman who had been at the Bauhaus

Hrag Vartanian: 11:45

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 11:46

And who we would put the we'd have these Bauhaus exercises of design. And she had exactly two things that she said when the work went out for group crit. It was either profoundly beautiful or utterly without merit, and there was nothing in between.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:08

Do you remember her name?

Karen Wilkin: 12:09

Missus Ridgeway. Ridgeway? Ridgeway. Ridgeway.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:13

Yeah. Wow. And she was she was, She

Karen Wilkin: 12:15

had been at the Bauhaus.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:16

That's amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 12:17

There was another teacher who had been a Hoffman student.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:20

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 12:21

That's incredible. Place.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:22

I bet. It sounds like it. So now how about the museums? Were you starting to go to museums then? Were you the Whitney, the Met?

Hrag Vartanian: 12:29

I mean

Karen Wilkin: 12:30

Well, the Whitney was very conveniently back to back with, MoMA at that point.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:36

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 12:36

Briefly before it moved up to the Brier building. Mhmm. I I don't I never visited it on eighth Street where I now spend half my life because I teach at the New York Studio School, but you could go from MOMA into the Whitney. Just they were back to back.

Hrag Vartanian: 12:54

Yeah. And how about the Met? What was your experience with the Met?

Karen Wilkin: 12:57

It was also a place where you knew where everything was.

Hrag Vartanian: 13:00

Right. Yeah. And you had a favorite room, favorite artworks?

Karen Wilkin: 13:03

I remember always being fascinated by the Venetian rooms. I apparently had been taken when I was still, you know, a toddler by my father to the Greek and Roman wing, and I can still see what that looked like with the, with like a Pompeian villa with sculpture in it. And I always wanted to go back to that. Well, of course, it wasn't there. They turned it into a restaurant.

Hrag Vartanian: 13:31

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 13:32

And they've it only, what, 10, 15 years ago went back to being the Roman installation, but it's not quite the same as I remember.

Hrag Vartanian: 13:41

No. I can imagine. So what was your first experience with art criticism? Do you remember when that was or who it was or what the show might have been?

Karen Wilkin: 13:50

Well, we were definitely reading things at Music and Art. There was an art history course. And it was, you know, pretty basic. I mean, there there were these kind of we all had these jokes we made about it because the person who taught it would say always say the same thing, which is, you know, Assyrian temples were huge affairs. You know?

Karen Wilkin: 14:13

That was all he ever said about a Syrian temple.

Hrag Vartanian: 14:16

And so then you went to Barnard knowing what you wanted to study, or did you have any inkling?

Karen Wilkin: 14:22

Yes and no. I mean, one of the reasons that I wanted to go to Barnard, and I'd gotten into a couple of other places, was I wanted to stay in New York because I was dancing very, very seriously.

Hrag Vartanian: 14:35

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Oh, right. So Yeah. You were one of the Balanchine pinheads as used to joke.

Hrag Vartanian: 14:44

I'm saying it because used to use that joke.

Karen Wilkin: 14:46

Right? Well, you know, I had the bird bones, and I was very flexible, and I was pretty good at it. My feet could have been better, but I was good enough at it that I was in the most advanced class by the time I was in Barnard. And I still don't know how I did this. I would go to a 9 o'clock class at Barnard.

Karen Wilkin: 15:07

I have my dance clothes under my clothes. I get in the subway. The School of American Ballet at that point was on 82nd Street and Broadway Mhmm. Where Barnes and Noble is now.

Hrag Vartanian: 15:22

Got it.

Karen Wilkin: 15:24

On the second floor. And every time I go to the second floor of that Barnes and Noble, it's like, oh, yeah. That was dressing room 1. That was studio 1. That was studio 2.

Karen Wilkin: 15:34

That hasn't changed. They've taken the partitions down.

Hrag Vartanian: 15:37

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 15:38

So I would then have a class. I go back to Barnard. I have a couple more classes. I'd come back for another class, and then I go do my homework. Why I didn't die, I don't know.

Hrag Vartanian: 15:50

So what was it about ballet that appealed to you so much?

Karen Wilkin: 15:53

Everything. And it was the most, absolutely extraordinary discipline. And you're aspiring to an abstract ideal.

Hrag Vartanian: 16:06

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 16:07

Somebody one of the dance critics, I forget which one, wrote, the arabesque is real, the leg is not, which says it all, the the abstraction.

Hrag Vartanian: 16:22

Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 16:23

It was a world apart from anything else. Certainly, when I was younger, it was it was my salvation because, you know, I was skinnier and smarter than most of the kids I was going to elementary school with, which is not a good thing. Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 16:39

So you you were able to pour some of your energy into that and your intelligence. Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about the instructors in in They were

Karen Wilkin: 16:47

all Russians.

Hrag Vartanian: 16:48

Really?

Karen Wilkin: 16:49

Except for Muriel Stewart, who had been one of Pavlova's little girls.

Hrag Vartanian: 16:54

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 16:55

She was British. I didn't really like her classes as much as the Russians. The Russians' English was slightly limited, shall we say, so they'd hit, which was fairly effective.

Hrag Vartanian: 17:09

Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 17:10

There was a madame Tunkovsky who taught the ferocious point class, and she lived on and on and on. And when I moved back to New York in 86, she was still teaching ferocious point classes that I would go and watch, and she was still saying exactly the same thing after the girls would do one of the combinations. She would say, very bad and terrible, do again.

Hrag Vartanian: 17:37

That was a good accent.

Karen Wilkin: 17:38

I had a lot of Russians to listen to. I also had a Russian speaking grandmother.

Hrag Vartanian: 17:43

Right? So then I love that. So the so that was sort of one of the places where, artistically, you also grew. Dance has been in movement. I I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that sculpture has been something you've written extensively about.

Hrag Vartanian: 17:58

It's connected to that. Right?

Karen Wilkin: 18:00

Right. Yeah. I mean, the the sense of I mean, Balanchine technique and I'm probably gonna get bore very boring here. Balanchine technique, which is like nothing else, partly because of its speed, but it's based on a very tight fifth position from which everything is very clearly articulated in 3 dimensions. And I am absolutely sure that is what I learned, and that's how I can look at sculpture.

Hrag Vartanian: 18:26

Yeah. I mean, I could see that. I mean, I I've definitely, through the years, picked up, I was like, like, It's the way that movement in space is very interesting to you, and I love that.

Karen Wilkin: 18:36

And with with some artists like, Caro, there's always you experience many of the works kinetically. You're you you feel that extension in space.

Hrag Vartanian: 18:46

Smith.

Karen Wilkin: 18:47

With Smith, it's incredibly important what's in front of what.

Hrag Vartanian: 18:51

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 18:53

Even though his work is always described as pictorial and flat, it isn't.

Hrag Vartanian: 18:57

Right. David

Karen Wilkin: 18:58

Smith. Absolutely. Those subtle three-dimensionalities. And, I probably shouldn't say this in public, but my distinguished colleague, Michael Branson, who wrote a brilliant biography of Smith in terms of the history Mhmm. And quoted people that it's just marvelous to be able to read, like his first wife, Dorothy Dehner, or his second wife.

Karen Wilkin: 19:25

He's not good on the sculpture. He really doesn't see that three dimensionality, which is and the artists that he like the sculptures he like best are ones that are not about that.

Hrag Vartanian: 19:37

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 19:37

Like Giacometti or Magdalena Bakanovic.

Hrag Vartanian: 19:40

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like artists, writers, I mean, sometimes they're stronger in certain parts than others and I think we all accept that and that's why we read each other. Yeah. You know, it's like sometimes it's true for And I

Karen Wilkin: 19:51

don't think michael ever danced.

Hrag Vartanian: 19:52

Yeah. That's right. There we are. So at Barnard what do did you start developing an interest in writing about the arts?

Karen Wilkin: 20:02

Yes. But it took a while. I mean, I was I did a a very advanced medieval French class the 1st year because my French was very good. I thought maybe that's where I would, end up. Barnard at that time was half the size it is now.

Karen Wilkin: 20:20

It's still a very small school. But in those days, classes of 4 were not unusual.

Hrag Vartanian: 20:27

Really?

Karen Wilkin: 20:27

Terrifying, but not unusual. No place to hide. I remember one Italian class that had 3. Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 20:37

And and who are some of your professors there?

Karen Wilkin: 20:39

Well, the the ones that I ended up getting really close to were the, for the most part, the art history professors, and that was the great, great scholar of, Northern Renaissance art, Julius Held, the great authority on Rubens, as he pronounced it, and Vermeer and, Rembrandt. He was totally inspiring. Somehow without there being great examples of, Holben's in New York City, he turned us all into passionate admirers of that artist. And, of course, when we all got to Europe, we had our lists of what we had to go see. You know about that.

Hrag Vartanian: 21:20

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Karen Wilkin: 21:22

And he he remained a very close friend.

Hrag Vartanian: 21:24

Oh, that's wonderful.

Karen Wilkin: 21:25

Which was wonderful. In fact, my husband and I took him to lunch about a week before he died

Hrag Vartanian: 21:31

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 21:32

At 90 7.

Hrag Vartanian: 21:34

Was anybody teaching about modern or or what

Karen Wilkin: 21:37

Barbara Novak was teaching American art, which was a brand new field at that point, and she was young. She's still with us. In fact, I should call her. She's 90 something, I think. She was married to Brian O'Doherty, who at that point was the critic for The Times.

Karen Wilkin: 21:57

Right. So he was around, and that was very interesting. And there was, a lounge called the James Room, which I don't think exists anymore. But it was a it had very high ceilings and big walls. And Julius Held was mounting exhibitions there

Hrag Vartanian: 22:18

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 22:18

Of things that now I think about it. How did he get to borrow these things? We had Pollock. We had Klein. We had Motherwell.

Karen Wilkin: 22:28

We had just just hanging up there.

Hrag Vartanian: 22:31

Unbelievable. And

Karen Wilkin: 22:31

there was elicited a lot of discussion about, you know, figuration versus nonfiguration. It was a pretty amazing department at that time.

Hrag Vartanian: 22:40

I bet.

Karen Wilkin: 22:41

There was but but the when you asked about contemporary art, you could not write your undergraduate thesis about a living artist unless you related that artist to a historical artist.

Hrag Vartanian: 22:56

Wow. Things have changed. Things have changed. Very much so. Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 23:01

And so who were some of the artists that stood out for you the most at that time? Or that maybe you were at you that opened your eyes to new ways of seeing?

Karen Wilkin: 23:09

Well, my father and Adolf Gottlieb were very good friends. My father was Adolf Gottlieb's physician. They were the same height.

Hrag Vartanian: 23:20

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 23:20

I think they may even have been the same age, and

Hrag Vartanian: 23:23

they

Karen Wilkin: 23:23

were very close. And so he was the real the first I won't say real artist, but he was the first really celebrated artist whose studio I visited. And that became that was something I did when I first started working as a curator.

Hrag Vartanian: 23:41

Amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 23:41

Go and and do the first museum show of his pictographs because he had access.

Hrag Vartanian: 23:47

Wow. And where was his studio then?

Karen Wilkin: 23:50

It was then on the Bowery. And what do you remember

Hrag Vartanian: 23:54

about that?

Karen Wilkin: 23:55

It was this former Bowery Bank. Mhmm. There were several other artists in there. He was he was very generous. We looked at a lot of work.

Karen Wilkin: 24:06

At that point, however, he'd had a stroke and was in a wheelchair. And what was very exciting was, I went around with him at it turned out to be his last show. It was, in the Fuller Building.

Hrag Vartanian: 24:23

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 24:24

It was one of the big international gallery, and we went around, looked at those paintings, which were ones that he had had the ground laid in by an assistant whom he called my good left hand. And so the the the drawing was somewhat tremulous. They were really beautiful paintings. Mhmm. And it was very exciting to go around with him.

Hrag Vartanian: 24:45

So what did you learn from him?

Karen Wilkin: 24:47

Well, I he was so, matter of fact about the way he talked about the work, you know, how it was made, what he had done.

Hrag Vartanian: 24:57

Right. And and so was that I mean, you know, abstract art was sort of still being debated in the public comments in a way.

Karen Wilkin: 25:07

It certainly wasn't my parents' living room when I

Hrag Vartanian: 25:09

It was.

Karen Wilkin: 25:10

When I was, in high school.

Hrag Vartanian: 25:12

Really? Yeah. And so what were some of the conversations

Karen Wilkin: 25:15

that you're hearing? Someone would always say, well, Picasso can draw. You

Hrag Vartanian: 25:19

know? Right.

Karen Wilkin: 25:21

And because my parents had friends who collected more, more seriously than my parents, but they they were buying well, they they were buying mauer. Both of them were buying mauer, and I was allowed to go along when my parents bought their mauer at Bertha Schaeffer Gallery.

Hrag Vartanian: 25:40

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 25:42

And they narrowed it down to a head and a still life, still life with a doily. And they were dithering, and I said, why don't we get both? And he always shut up, kid. Well, I'm living with the head. It's beautiful, but I can still see the damn doily fading.

Hrag Vartanian: 26:02

I love that.

Karen Wilkin: 26:05

And it my parents' friends also had Karl Knaths, and I am extremely grateful that my parents were not interested. And it had had very beautiful little Gottlieb burst, which I'm still living with.

Hrag Vartanian: 26:25

Beautiful.

Karen Wilkin: 26:25

So, but I know it was always, I remember overhearing those conversations and there was a lot of emphasis placed on ability to draw.

Hrag Vartanian: 26:38

Right. That makes sense from that era. So in college, did you start thinking maybe art is what I wanna do? Curating, writing.

Karen Wilkin: 26:50

Well, you have to declare your major by, the end of the 2nd year.

Hrag Vartanian: 26:54

Got it.

Karen Wilkin: 26:55

You could also I think it's still true. If something isn't offered at Barnard, you can take it at Columbia. Mhmm. And there was an amazing course taught by someone called, Morton was a surname, intellectual history of the ancient, Mediterranean world. And it started with Gilgamesh, and it went on from there.

Karen Wilkin: 27:20

It was one of the greatest courses I've ever had in my life. I remember when it ended, he said, some of you may wanna stay in this field. You should get as many ancient languages as possible. I suggest you start with Aramaic and work your way up.

Hrag Vartanian: 27:35

So how's your Acadian?

Karen Wilkin: 27:37

It isn't. Anyway but by that time, I was getting very interested in the art history courses. And you could also there was a the head of the department was a woman called Marion Lawrence, who was a medievalist. Julius Held later described her as a woman who had devoted her life to scholarship and lost all human qualities in the process.

Hrag Vartanian: 28:02

That's

Karen Wilkin: 28:02

hilarious. Would lecture from notes that

Hrag Vartanian: 28:05

That could describe a lot of scholars, unfortunately.

Karen Wilkin: 28:08

But she would lecture from notes that crumbled as she turned the page.

Hrag Vartanian: 28:12

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 28:12

And it's a great course. It was a year long course in medieval art.

Hrag Vartanian: 28:16

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 28:17

The art was great, but you could also, if you got permission of the instructor to as an undergraduate, take anything in the graduate school except the seminars. And I knew Meyer Shapero was across the street. So so the A

Hrag Vartanian: 28:32

great art historian.

Karen Wilkin: 28:33

The great art historian. And he taught early Christian art. He taught impressionism. He did you name it. He was a complete polymath.

Karen Wilkin: 28:46

And I was able to study with him starting from when I was an undergraduate. Whew.

Hrag Vartanian: 28:52

Well, that seems pretty special.

Karen Wilkin: 28:53

It was.

Hrag Vartanian: 28:54

And what were some of the courses you took away?

Karen Wilkin: 28:56

Oh, I took early Christian art. I took impressionism. I took

Hrag Vartanian: 29:00

Any modernism or modern art?

Karen Wilkin: 29:02

The most modern course was the impressionism. Really? Yeah. That he was he he would just choose what he was teaching.

Hrag Vartanian: 29:08

Oh, was anybody teaching early like early 20th century or

Karen Wilkin: 29:13

No. Ted Reff.

Hrag Vartanian: 29:14

Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 29:16

That's a whole other story. He would prey on Barnard girls, so I definitely didn't wanna take his

Hrag Vartanian: 29:22

course. Yikes. Yeah. That that's a whole part of the story. It probably isn't true.

Karen Wilkin: 29:26

Times were very different then.

Hrag Vartanian: 29:28

Yeah. I bet.

Karen Wilkin: 29:28

I mean, there are quite a number of people teaching that would, you know, now be in jail.

Hrag Vartanian: 29:33

I bet. And what was it like being a woman in the field, you know, or being a woman sort of studying these, like, you know, our life our world is gendered. And at that time, I'm guessing that probably played a role.

Karen Wilkin: 29:46

Well, I discovered long after I graduated, I was told that I was the brightest arts to art history student they had ever had. But I wasn't getting any of the recommendations for the fellowships or the internships. Wow. I later discovered that my male colleagues were getting preferential treatment.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:05

Of course, they were, unfortunately.

Karen Wilkin: 30:07

On the other hand, one who was a good friend ended up teaching at Emory, which was not really one of my aspirations.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:12

Right. Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 30:16

I was also doing non credit art courses, and Stephen Green was teaching

Hrag Vartanian: 30:23

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 30:24

Who was an extraordinary guy, and he became a very good friend. And his daughter, Allison

Hrag Vartanian: 30:30

Who's a curator? Is

Karen Wilkin: 30:31

yeah. Allison blames me. She says she became a curator because of me.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:35

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 30:35

She's like family.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:37

Yeah. She was at, Museum of Fine Arts in Houston. Right. Exactly. That's wonderful.

Karen Wilkin: 30:42

Our parents were friends, you know, with that kind of thing.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:44

Oh, wow. But Allison always

Karen Wilkin: 30:46

looks like family.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:47

So what was Stephen Green as a as a teacher?

Karen Wilkin: 30:50

He was extraordinary.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:52

And what was he teaching?

Karen Wilkin: 30:53

He was teaching drawing.

Hrag Vartanian: 30:55

He was teaching drawing. Wow. A drawing course. Amazing. And he was a teacher for a lot of important artists.

Karen Wilkin: 30:59

Oh, yeah. Well, I my whole relationship with Frank Stella

Hrag Vartanian: 31:03

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 31:04

Hinged on the fact that I had been close to Steven.

Hrag Vartanian: 31:08

Makes sense.

Karen Wilkin: 31:08

And it would that was why Frank took me seriously.

Hrag Vartanian: 31:12

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 31:13

After Steve died, the Addison did a a show at Frank's insistence honoring

Hrag Vartanian: 31:21

Steve. That's right.

Karen Wilkin: 31:22

And we did he asked me if I'd do the show, which, of course, I was happy to do. Steve had done a last series of drawings that were absolutely ravishing, very mysterious, very, very subtle.

Hrag Vartanian: 31:38

So when you left Barnard, what happened? How did you

Karen Wilkin: 31:41

Well, I I did an MFA,

Hrag Vartanian: 31:44

first

Karen Wilkin: 31:44

of all.

Hrag Vartanian: 31:44

An MFA in studio art? Or which yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 31:47

Okay. Also doing a lot of the art history as well. Mhmm. Rudolf Bittcover was teaching baroque. That's right.

Karen Wilkin: 31:55

I was working with Shapiro. I was working with I mean, the the MFA really was a way of not having to write the whole thesis because it had suddenly dawned on me, you know, that Rudolph Beck cover doesn't care whether I can identify these ceiling frescoes. And I had a Fulbright to Rome, so I went to Rome.

Hrag Vartanian: 32:21

And was that your first time in Rome? No. It wasn't?

Karen Wilkin: 32:25

A couple of summers, I'd been involved with the Spoleto Festival

Hrag Vartanian: 32:28

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 32:29

When it was still the Spoleto Festival. I I was very close to Samuel Barber.

Hrag Vartanian: 32:33

K.

Karen Wilkin: 32:34

That was my education in modern music.

Hrag Vartanian: 32:37

Fantastic way to learn modern music.

Karen Wilkin: 32:39

Yeah. I was Sam's beard. Why he thought going around with a 19 year old would confuse anybody.

Hrag Vartanian: 32:49

Well, it probably it probably did.

Karen Wilkin: 32:51

Nice for me. But we would go to these he felt he had to go to all these modern music concert concerts. And one piece, the duration of the note was given, but the value wasn't.

Hrag Vartanian: 33:04

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 33:06

So everybody was playing whatever at the same time. And then the next piece, the value of the note was given, but the duration wasn't.

Hrag Vartanian: 33:15

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 33:16

So the effect was more or less the same.

Hrag Vartanian: 33:18

And in that era, I mean, one thing, that I've always appreciated about you, and you were one of the first people to be like this with me, which was there were gay and lesbian people in your life throughout his throughout your life.

Karen Wilkin: 33:29

Always.

Hrag Vartanian: 33:29

Always. And, you know, I don't know how rare you realize that is for a lot of people. And I'm wondering, you know

Karen Wilkin: 33:35

I do because I live worked in Western Canada

Hrag Vartanian: 33:38

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 33:39

For a while. It's a long story, but I ended up in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada working at a museum where I was able to do things I would never have been able to do anywhere else. I give you that. Yep. With a pretty good acquisition budget, there were, a pair of female architects, obviously a lesbian couple.

Hrag Vartanian: 33:58

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 33:58

Nobody mentioned it. And then the most egregious of this was a one of the wealthiest people in town with an enormous, gorgeous house, an elderly woman with a very devoted son who, you know, organized all her bridge parties, and then she died. And the son inherited the house. And people were saying quite seriously, isn't it nice that that lovely young man has come to share that great big house with x? He would have been so, so lonely there by himself.

Hrag Vartanian: 34:36

Oh, wow. Yeah. Right. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 34:39

Really?

Hrag Vartanian: 34:40

Right. Right. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 34:42

They were serious.

Hrag Vartanian: 34:43

Yeah. So what was that like be you know, because it was still a stigma, very much so in society, in the media. But to be around, you know, sort of a lot of different types of people, sexual minorities in different ways, I mean, how would you describe that?

Karen Wilkin: 34:58

I it just wasn't an issue. I mean, there were some things I look back on that are kind of strange. We had neighbors in the country, a doctor whom my father had gone to medical school with, and their property adjoined the property of our country house. We had a path that went back and forth. His wife was my my father's gardening buddy.

Karen Wilkin: 35:21

They were one very good friends. And I discovered many years later, do you know about Folly Cove? It was an artist cooperative on Cape Ann that did hand block prints.

Hrag Vartanian: 35:34

Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 35:34

Beautiful fabrics. And which apparently they sold at Altman's. And a 1000 years later, I did a Stuart Davis show for the Cape Ann Historical Society, which has a collection, a great big big pieces of Folly Cove fabric that you can flip through. And I looked through the thing, and I realized that that was what was in the house

Hrag Vartanian: 35:59

and my parents' friends. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that's Amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 36:03

So and and they had a great friend, a nice young man, who used to come and stay with them all the time, who was devoted to them both.

Hrag Vartanian: 36:16

Right. So it was part of your life throughout your life, and it was very normal.

Karen Wilkin: 36:21

Question. Jerry Robbins was a good friend.

Hrag Vartanian: 36:23

Right. Uh-huh. That's amazing. So now after college, what was the first show you curated or wrote about?

Karen Wilkin: 36:30

Well, it took me a while. I was in Rome. I got married in Rome, which seemed like a good idea at the time. My only excuse is that I was young. And that's how I ended up in Edmonton

Hrag Vartanian: 36:42

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 36:42

Because he was from Edmonton. And what saved my life was working at what is now the Art Gallery of Alberta.

Hrag Vartanian: 36:52

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 36:53

Then the Edmonton Art Gallery. I was teaching at the University of Alberta, being the most junior person on staff who was constantly being told, no, you can't use the senior calming room. That's only for faculty.

Hrag Vartanian: 37:07

Wow. Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 37:09

It was a long time ago. I got stuck with the adult art appreciation course, which I taught. And the second time I did it, there was the same couple who had taken it the first time, who were on the board of the Edmonton Art Gallery, which had just built a new building Mhmm. And had a director chief curator who they had just fired because he organized an exhibition in which one of the artists had a performance which consisted of sitting on what was called the high level bridge over the river Mhmm. And throwing cornflakes off it.

Karen Wilkin: 37:54

This did not go down well. So I saw the here are these people again. Oh, God. I can't tell any of the same jokes.

Hrag Vartanian: 38:03

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 38:04

They took me to see the then president of the board of the Edmonton Art Gallery. He had a Jack Bush that just knocked me out. Now at the time, I'd only seen about 5 Jack Bushes, but I was able to say to this collector, this is the best Jack Bush I've ever seen. It actually still is one of the jack best Jack Bushes I've ever seen. Well, he thought I was incredibly perceptive.

Karen Wilkin: 38:36

He then said, well, you know, when you go to New York next, find me an Olitsky. Wow. Which I did. Mhmm. And he that passed muster too.

Karen Wilkin: 38:47

And then I got offered the position of chief curator at the Edmonton Art Gallery. Knowing virtually nothing about Canadian art. But luckily, I'm a fast learner.

Hrag Vartanian: 38:59

That's amazing. Yeah. So wow. And

Karen Wilkin: 39:01

And that saved my life. I mean, if I were if I hadn't been doing that, I think I would have slipped my wrist.

Hrag Vartanian: 39:06

So at this point, I'm gonna mention that my first exposure to you was at the University of Toronto teaching art criticism, but you also taught a class about Jack Bush, you know, or a workshop workshop.

Karen Wilkin: 39:17

They were working on the beginning of the catalog resume, which all these years later is finally being published.

Hrag Vartanian: 39:27

Right. Yes. And I do remember because I was doing research on the Clement Greenberg archive for that project Yeah. And his correspondence. And it was with you I visited Clement Greenberg's old apartment on Central Park West.

Hrag Vartanian: 39:42

I mean, he had passed at that point, but his wife, Janice. Jenny. I'm sorry. Jenny, was there.

Karen Wilkin: 39:49

Was Janice, but she was called Jenny. Got it.

Hrag Vartanian: 39:51

And I remember visiting his apartment with you, and, I remember that experience. Do you wanna talk a little bit about your relationship with Clement Greenberg?

Karen Wilkin: 40:02

Vexed. I mean, I was I was very thrilled to meet him. I'd read his writing. He was very impressive

Hrag Vartanian: 40:14

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 40:15

Intellectually. I that apartment, as you know, it probably still had some of that wonderful

Hrag Vartanian: 40:20

art. It was all full of it, actually. It was all there. The number 1, the old Noland 1 was there. They were all there Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 40:26

Still.

Karen Wilkin: 40:27

I mean, gradually, things were he would sell things when he needed money. He wasn't sentimental about these things at

Hrag Vartanian: 40:33

all. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 40:34

I was fortunate enough to go, sometimes to museums with him, to studios with him, where he was absolutely pure. I mean, he would just respond to what was in front of him with no preconception. And while an artist was changing what was going to be in front of him, he'd look away. He'd look out the window or look at a wall so that when he turned to look at whatever it was, it was an immediate look. He would sometimes say you're ahead of me there.

Hrag Vartanian: 41:11

Interesting.

Karen Wilkin: 41:13

Let it cook. Yeah. So all the things about his telling people what to do are just not true.

Hrag Vartanian: 41:21

Yeah. That became kind of like a, I don't know, a stereotype. Right?

Karen Wilkin: 41:26

Oh, yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 41:26

That around this idea that he was telling artists what to do.

Karen Wilkin: 41:30

I mean, everything he wrote has its very authoritative sound, but you what you have to remember is every single one of these begins with a tacit in my experience.

Hrag Vartanian: 41:40

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 41:41

He's trying to be faithful to what he saw being led by his eye. And what he frequently said at talks, and I'm sure you've heard him or you've read this, he would say that if he'd had his druthers, that was one of his phrases, the best art of his time would have been representational.

Hrag Vartanian: 42:04

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 42:05

But his, what he was seeing told him it wasn't.

Hrag Vartanian: 42:09

Right. So he was willing to sort of, you know, look and see something that he didn't necessarily expect.

Karen Wilkin: 42:17

He wanted to see something he didn't necessarily expect. Now things change late in life. He was drinking much more, and I think at that point, he was looking for something. You know, he went with expectations. But when I first knew him, he wasn't like that.

Karen Wilkin: 42:35

And it was I learned a lot from him.

Hrag Vartanian: 42:37

So what are some of the things you learned from him?

Karen Wilkin: 42:39

Well, to to deal exactly with what was was in front of you rather than to expect it to look somewhat.

Hrag Vartanian: 42:47

Or prescribed

Karen Wilkin: 42:48

something. Prescribed in any way.

Hrag Vartanian: 42:50

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 42:50

And there would be discussions sometimes in the studio because there are often more than one person in the studio. And I'd also I've also, for God, since 1982, been involved with an international program for artists that the sculptor, Antoni Caro

Hrag Vartanian: 43:06

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 43:07

Started, which, in their part of the program is what was called a workshop, which was like master classes

Hrag Vartanian: 43:15

for artists. Triangle.

Karen Wilkin: 43:17

Triangle. Exactly. Which is still going strong.

Hrag Vartanian: 43:19

Yep. It's it's headquartered in Dumbo, actually.

Karen Wilkin: 43:22

It's headquartered in Dumbo.

Hrag Vartanian: 43:23

Yeah. And triangle, of course, for those who don't know, it was sort of was it, like, US, Canada, UK? Was that the triangle the original triangle? Right.

Karen Wilkin: 43:32

Well, by year 2, we had a French artist and a South African artist. Now I don't know what you'd call

Hrag Vartanian: 43:39

Right. Right. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 43:40

I think 65 or more countries.

Hrag Vartanian: 43:43

Amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 43:44

Every continent except Antarctica.

Hrag Vartanian: 43:47

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 43:48

And one of the artists went to Antarctica on the that British Antarctic survey thing where they send an artist.

Hrag Vartanian: 43:54

So you got it.

Karen Wilkin: 43:54

So we got it.

Hrag Vartanian: 43:55

But you were also involved with Emma Lake workshops.

Karen Wilkin: 43:58

I was a visitor at Emma Lake

Hrag Vartanian: 43:59

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 44:00

As Clem was.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:01

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 44:01

As everybody. Noland was there. Frank Stella was there.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:04

And that was in Canada, and that was also an important workshop for a lot of, abstract painters. Correct? It was. And important workshop for a lot

Karen Wilkin: 44:10

of, abstract painters.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:10

Correct? It was. You know?

Karen Wilkin: 44:11

And it was very important for Canadian art.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:13

Yes. Absolutely.

Karen Wilkin: 44:14

Because, when they started inviting, major figures who came, The the story is the first one they invited was Barnett Newman.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:25

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 44:25

And he as you know, Barnett Newman was a devout socialist and ran for some New York City government position on the socialist ticket. Didn't make it, but he ran for it. And he wanted to go to his the story is the first thing he said was, where the hell is Saskatchewan and who is Emma Lake? I don't know if that's apocryphal, but it's a good story.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:50

Was it because of the socialist history of Saskatchewan?

Karen Wilkin: 44:52

Had a social credit government. He wanted to go see what it was like.

Hrag Vartanian: 44:55

I think that is that's where, health universal health care in Canada started, I believe. Or was it Manitoba? I can't remember, but it was one of those. Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 45:02

So that's why he went. Yeah. And then they kept inviting other people. The I've seen the notes of the first meeting when they decided let's invite somebody good, because originally, it was the the art teacher at the University of Saskatchewan who liked to fish in the summer. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 45:19

And the students went up with him

Hrag Vartanian: 45:20

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 45:21

Including Dorothy Knowles and Louis Perhutov and other luminaries of Canadian painting. But, aft they one of the people they thought of inviting was Picasso.

Hrag Vartanian: 45:34

That didn't happen, I'm guessing. No.

Karen Wilkin: 45:36

But a lot of other people came after that. And working side by side with these, you know, pretty celebrated figures in the much smaller art world of those days, with artists from Saskatchewan, artists from Ontario, the it wasn't us and them anymore. I'm competing on the same Right.

Hrag Vartanian: 46:03

As the world has

Karen Wilkin: 46:04

And it made huge difference.

Hrag Vartanian: 46:06

I bet. I bet it brought up a lot. So what are some of the things that, you you know, maybe someone like Clement Greenberg taught you about art in general that maybe people may not know about or maybe there because there are a lot of stereotypes about who he was and and what he did.

Karen Wilkin: 46:22

The problem with Clem is that while he was a brilliant critic and a very good writer, he could be a truly loathsome human being.

Hrag Vartanian: 46:30

That's unfortunate.

Karen Wilkin: 46:31

He had a lot of not very nice characteristics. He would test people. He'd, you know, see how far he could push before you rebelled. He was I mean, I finally stopped talking to him because I couldn't I couldn't take the abuse anymore. Really?

Karen Wilkin: 46:49

You know, there'd be some sort of talk, and at the end people would say, well, is there anyone writing now that you think is any good? And then he would name some of some male people who I knew weren't any good. And I'm not gonna name any names.

Hrag Vartanian: 47:03

Sure.

Karen Wilkin: 47:05

There was an occasion when

Hrag Vartanian: 47:07

And then he would never mention you. Never. Never. Right. And he never mentioned other women as well, it sounds like.

Hrag Vartanian: 47:12

No.

Karen Wilkin: 47:13

No. I mean, there was that famous, phrase of his, Jew, bitch, girl curators, which What? Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 47:23

Are you kidding me?

Karen Wilkin: 47:25

I couldn't make that up. I grew up on the upper west side. You're not allowed to say things like that.

Hrag Vartanian: 47:30

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 47:33

The bane of the art world, he said.

Hrag Vartanian: 47:34

Really? My my oh my.

Karen Wilkin: 47:39

But, you know, there'd be things like, at one point he he said, oh, I have a confession to make to you. There was a an exhibition at Duke University, from the collection of the Corcoran of, Abstract Expressionism. It must have gone beyond Abstract Expressionism because Helen Frankenthaler was in it anyway. He told me they had asked him about the list of people they wanted to invite. I was on it and a another woman, called Phyllis Tuckman Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 48:11

Of course. Who is, okay. And and Clem said, and I told them get rid of the girls. Wow. And I said, you know, if you think I'm no good, then tell them to get rid of me.

Karen Wilkin: 48:24

But don't tell them to get rid of me because I'm female. Well, they invited me anyway. They didn't invite Phyllis. That's another story. But that's the kind of thing he did.

Hrag Vartanian: 48:34

So yeah. I mean, I could see that also. That kind of, contrarian or or terrible attitude probably created a lot of enemies to you.

Karen Wilkin: 48:43

It certainly did.

Hrag Vartanian: 48:44

As it probably should have in some way.

Karen Wilkin: 48:46

I mean, when I finally stopped talking to him, I think what put me over the edge was I was in Knoedler Gallery looking at something, and Clem came in. And I hear someone behind I didn't know it was Clem. And I hear somebody saying, I know those legs. And I thought, that's the only thing he can recognize in there. Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 49:09

And, I told Michael Fried, who had stopped talking to him a long time before that, because I think Clem was incredibly rude about Michael's wife, who was a brilliant, scholar, history of psychoanalysis. Mhmm. And I told Michael I'd stop talking to Clem. He said, what what took you so long? And then, of course, there was the other little detail there.

Karen Wilkin: 49:35

My mother's best friend was Clem Greenberg's cousin, Sonya.

Hrag Vartanian: 49:41

No way.

Karen Wilkin: 49:42

So I was hearing stories about what Clem was like as a child. Some of which have turned up in a biography. Apparently, he bludgeoned a goose to death with a shovel as a child.

Hrag Vartanian: 49:59

That's unusual.

Karen Wilkin: 50:00

Yes. And I was curious enough about this when I was still talking to him to ask him about it. And he said, you've been talking to Sonia. Well, I had, actually. And then he said, well, that goose reminded me of my father.

Hrag Vartanian: 50:22

Woah.

Karen Wilkin: 50:23

Now I should say that, Clem's brother, Marty, who was a writer, was one of the nicest, kindest, loveliest human beings on this planet. Yeah. And, his daughter, Sarah, is also a lovely, brilliant, delightful person.

Hrag Vartanian: 50:44

Right. Well, to say, sometimes, different siblings in the same family show up very, very differently in the world for different reasons. So wow. Well, I mean, you are a brilliant writer, so I don't know what he was saying. But,

Karen Wilkin: 50:59

Well, he did use to say that I handled the language well.

Hrag Vartanian: 51:02

Oh, okay. I guess that that's his way of giving a compliment. Right? So who were some of the people that did inspire you to, you know, to write more or you felt you were in dialogue with?

Karen Wilkin: 51:13

You know, I grew up reading the New Yorker cover to cover. Mhmm. You started with I started with the cartoons. Then when I could read more, I read the little there used to be those hilarious squibs at the end of the articles, you know, sort of weird things that got printed. And I think reading the prose in the New Yorker when I was growing up, which included J.

Karen Wilkin: 51:38

D. Salinger and Catherine White and John McPhee and all of these really, really good writers. I think that had a big influence. My godparents were writers.

Hrag Vartanian: 51:51

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 51:52

My godmother was the humorist, Ruth McKenney, who wrote the Sister Eileen stories.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:00

Amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 52:01

So I had and, SJ Perlman was a family friend, so we had all those books.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:08

Quite a literary circle around your parents.

Karen Wilkin: 52:10

Literary.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:11

Yeah. How did that happen? How how do you how do you think

Karen Wilkin: 52:14

I don't know. My parent these were my parents' friends. You know? I don't know how my parents can be people.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:18

Do you know how they met

Karen Wilkin: 52:21

them? You know, it may have been partly because they were patients of my father's Right.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:27

Got it.

Karen Wilkin: 52:27

Who was a, very, very literate man who also was very, very knowledgeable about music.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:34

I mean,

Karen Wilkin: 52:34

I don't think anything ever, you know, would be in the car, QXR would be playing. There was never anything that he couldn't tell you what it was.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:41

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 52:42

So and my mother was, you know, a very intelligent, well educated woman who never did anything, which is tragic.

Hrag Vartanian: 52:50

So were there any books that were really formative for you in early or even even college or early part of your art art career?

Karen Wilkin: 52:59

Well, I I read, believe it or not, Andre Malhot was very you know, the

Hrag Vartanian: 53:05

Of course.

Karen Wilkin: 53:06

That was a very important book when it first came out. Which one? The Voices of Silence Oh, of course. Which is one about museum the idea of the museum without walls Yes. Which is certainly current now.

Hrag Vartanian: 53:17

Yeah. Absolutely. It's very prescient.

Karen Wilkin: 53:19

Yeah. I read Greenberg pretty much as soon as as art and culture was published. I was reading some of the magazines. Mhmm. So I read Michael Fried early on.

Karen Wilkin: 53:33

I knew that was lumpy prose. He's better now. Much better now.

Hrag Vartanian: 53:38

But important ideas.

Karen Wilkin: 53:39

Very important.

Hrag Vartanian: 53:40

Very. Yeah. I've read a lot of fiction in those days. Any favorite books?

Karen Wilkin: 53:46

Well, when I was I mean, some of these, that's one I want to admit. I remember when I read the Alexandrian quartet,

Hrag Vartanian: 53:53

the one with Darryl,

Karen Wilkin: 53:53

I was just swept away.

Hrag Vartanian: 53:55

I mean, it's a beautiful series.

Karen Wilkin: 53:56

Yeah. It's I don't think I could reread it now, but No.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:00

I don't think I could either, but I I remember the first time I read that too.

Karen Wilkin: 54:04

I just got knocked out by it. But mind you, when I was 17 and I read Thomas Wolfe for the first time, I was knocked out by that, and I could never read that again.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:16

So I have to ask you about his painted word because when that came out years years later

Karen Wilkin: 54:21

I thought that was hilarious.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:23

Yeah. I know.

Karen Wilkin: 54:23

Tom Wolfe.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:24

Oh, Tom.

Karen Wilkin: 54:25

The novelist.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:25

Oh, the novel. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I messed

Karen Wilkin: 54:28

that up. Book, Look Homeward. Angel

Hrag Vartanian: 54:32

Got it.

Karen Wilkin: 54:32

Ken Knowles' grandfather is a cat a character.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:36

No way.

Karen Wilkin: 54:36

Yeah. He's the, I think, undertaker who has the, a surrogate, like the giant doll that

Hrag Vartanian: 54:45

he plays in. Wow. Okay. I got the mixed up apologies.

Karen Wilkin: 54:48

Two very different.

Hrag Vartanian: 54:49

Yes. Very different. Very, very different.

Karen Wilkin: 54:52

John Wolf was great writing about things he hated. No. It's true. I mean, he he could turn a phrase. He could skew or something.

Hrag Vartanian: 55:01

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 55:02

He was much less good on things he liked. And it is much easier to be clever about things you don't like. Yeah. Actually I feel very well known.

Hrag Vartanian: 55:10

Yeah. Absolutely. This is kind of the way it is. Right? It's sort of like it's it's, you know, being over critical in a in a negative way can sometimes be, for a writer, it's kind of deadly to, like, lean into that too much.

Hrag Vartanian: 55:25

No. Don't you

Karen Wilkin: 55:26

think? But it can be fun.

Hrag Vartanian: 55:27

Yeah. It can be fun. It's gonna be a lot of fun, but it definitely is not necessarily the best way to do your thing. That's funny.

Karen Wilkin: 55:35

But you you asked me what I learned from Greenberg. I think the thing I most learned from him was, to strive to be faithful to my experience.

Hrag Vartanian: 55:45

That's beautiful.

Karen Wilkin: 55:47

Because, you know, I sometimes have students in my in my MFA seminars at the studio school. They say, well, what about objective criticism? There's no such thing.

Hrag Vartanian: 56:01

Right. Yeah. Right. Though though some people have tried to make it into that, but I I don't think anyone's ever succeeded.

Karen Wilkin: 56:08

The other thing I learned from Greenberg and I think I probably would have come to this on my own anyway or maybe I did come to it on my own is to avoid theory.

Hrag Vartanian: 56:19

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 56:20

Squeezing the your experience of the work of art through some Yeah. Formula. So why do

Hrag Vartanian: 56:25

you think because, actually, I'd love that you brought that up because it's something I still think about is why some people seem so enamored with theory. And that's not to say theory isn't important in its own way, but it does feel sometimes like a straight jacket for some people.

Karen Wilkin: 56:39

Oh, it's easier. You don't have to really look.

Hrag Vartanian: 56:42

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 56:42

You know, you can take a quick glance and use it as a jumping off place for some sometimes very interesting idea Right. Which may or may not be relevant to the object.

Hrag Vartanian: 56:55

Right. Absolutely. So now tell us a little bit about you were in, Alberta. So when did you move there? What years were those?

Karen Wilkin: 57:05

Sixties? I was there from 67 to 78. 78, I moved to Toronto

Hrag Vartanian: 57:14

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 57:14

And started working independently. There were a handful of us independent curators in those days and we had all had in house experience. Now people get up in the morning, you know, they smite themselves on the brow and say, I am a curator. Everybody's a curator. Everybody's something hyphenated.

Karen Wilkin: 57:33

And nobody teaches. They're all educators now.

Hrag Vartanian: 57:35

Right. I love that. So what was Toronto like then and the art world in Toronto at that period?

Karen Wilkin: 57:41

A lot of very good painters. Yeah. Most of whom I knew.

Hrag Vartanian: 57:45

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 57:45

Many of them had were people who had been, encouraged by Jack Bush who was very, very generous to younger art. I'm lucky to know him at the end of his life. And he was a delight, very unpretentious and warm and such a wonderful painter.

Hrag Vartanian: 58:06

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 58:07

And many of these younger artists he had was very, very encouraging to. And they've been completely written out of the canon by by the Canadian powers that be, you know.

Hrag Vartanian: 58:19

Well, things go in cycles, so who knows?

Karen Wilkin: 58:21

Whole generation. One of them was David Balduke who was Oh, right. I think a wonderful artist and a wonderful guy. I miss him very much.

Hrag Vartanian: 58:31

I still remember his sort of, like, his sort of forms that kind of, like, fanned out. Yeah. Those are really beautiful or are beautiful.

Karen Wilkin: 58:39

Died a few years ago. They still haven't done a major show, which they should have done. Sure.

Hrag Vartanian: 58:46

You know? Absolutely.

Karen Wilkin: 58:49

So Jane Corkin, I think, a gallery, which is a very good gallery, is showing some of these people, which is awesome.

Hrag Vartanian: 58:56

Absolutely. So then you moved to New York, you said, in 82, back to New York?

Karen Wilkin: 59:01

Back 85.

Hrag Vartanian: 59:02

85. Okay. And so what brought you back to New York?

Karen Wilkin: 59:07

Well, really, my husband.

Hrag Vartanian: 59:09

Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 59:10

I I got rid of the other one, which was a very good eye very good idea.

Hrag Vartanian: 59:16

Out with the old, in with the new. Out with the old, in with the new.

Karen Wilkin: 59:19

Don decided that he didn't wanna work in Canada anymore. He wanted to work elsewhere.

Hrag Vartanian: 59:24

So what was New York like when you returned?

Karen Wilkin: 59:26

Well, it was the eighties, so it was just digging out from the seventies.

Hrag Vartanian: 59:31

Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 59:32

And, where I live on 38th Street between 5th and 6th, Bryant Park had been redone. It had by that time, they had gotten rid of all the drug dealers. They had replanted it. So some of the drug dealers were at the end of our block.

Hrag Vartanian: 59:49

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 59:50

And but, you know, we lived on the block, so they didn't bother us. Right. They're gone now. I don't know where they've gone. Or maybe they just opened all those, cannabis stores.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:02

Who knows? I I can't imagine how why there's so many. I mean, it's just incredible to me.

Karen Wilkin: 01:00:07

Well, they they cracked down on a bunch of the illegal ones in my neighborhood.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:10

Oh, yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 01:00:11

That makes sense. Every 3 inches.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:12

That makes sense.

Karen Wilkin: 01:00:13

And one of them turned into a gelato store, which I thought was great. Then we went and tried the gelato, and it wasn't any good. And I see that that has now closed.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:24

So who knows? I love that. So New York must have been a whole different, animal in that area.

Karen Wilkin: 01:00:34

Still, you know, holding on to your handbag. And Right. There were still galleries in SoHo.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:39

Okay. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. And the East Village was becoming a thing?

Karen Wilkin: 01:00:43

Just beginning.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:44

And East Village was becoming a scene too?

Karen Wilkin: 01:00:46

Village was becoming a scene, and Chelsea was just just beginning.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:00:52

Just beginning. And so what were you seeing? Because, you know, there was one one thing I've learned about New York Art World in the seventies eighties was there there was it was almost like a doctrine had had, like, descended on so much of the art world.

Karen Wilkin: 01:01:08

That's a good point. I mean, when I was first conscious of contemporary art and getting being fortunate enough to know to get get to know a lot of the artists whom I really admired, who were, you know, considerably older than I was and established, and, I mean, the real education, spending time with them in their studios, especially Anjani Caro. But the color field painters, the abstract painters, were coexisting in the marketplace with the pop artists. And the minimalists were getting started. And there seemed to be room for everybody.

Karen Wilkin: 01:01:46

It wasn't either or.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:01:47

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:01:48

And then it became very either or, which, of course, now it isn't either or. Now it's whatever. Right. Which is the other side of

Hrag Vartanian: 01:01:58

the lawn. Right. There's so many marketplaces. Yeah. Yeah.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:02:01

So many.

Karen Wilkin: 01:02:01

Yeah. Well, you must have slogged around the art fair the way I did.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:02:05

Yeah. We all you know? And it's like, you know

Karen Wilkin: 01:02:08

I thought your point about the mattresses and the jewelry were extremely well taken.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:02:14

It was it was pretty funny. I have to say it was unexpected and yeah. So What?

Karen Wilkin: 01:02:20

It's jewelry.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:02:21

Yeah. They were I mean, for those who may not know, at the armory show, there was a booth selling high end mattresses and another selling jewelry, which was not exactly what we were expecting, I think.

Karen Wilkin: 01:02:32

In very prime locations.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:02:34

I you know, I I to to joke, I actually thought the mattresses were an art installation until because I saw them from a distance. I hadn't approached it. And then someone later had to explain to me that they were actually, no. They were just mattresses.

Karen Wilkin: 01:02:48

Had exactly the same experience. I was coming from a distance. I thought,

Hrag Vartanian: 01:02:53

what some kind of minimalist sculpture? And then I got up close. So but in that period when you came back to New York, if I remember, you started writing books more. Is that

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:03

Well, I had already done the David Smith book. Right. That was the first book I

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:06

With Abbeville Press, I believe.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:08

That with Abbeville Press.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:09

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:09

It's still in print. Yeah. Wow. I don't care. Well, it's

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:12

a good book. But it is a good book.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:14

Dorothy Daner said it was the best book on Smith.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:17

Amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:18

And she was wonderful. Yeah. His his first wife.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:22

You also wrote a Brock book for that.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:24

Wrote a Brock book for them.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:25

Right. George Brock.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:27

That was a lot of fun.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:28

Yeah. Absolutely. But you were starting to write books more in that period.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:31

Well, I mean, you asked me how I got started writing, and that was entirely when I was working in Edmonton.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:03:37

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 01:03:37

I was doing exhibition catalogs, and, the local artists who some of whom were very good, some of whom I'm still in touch with. I mean, there are 2 sculptors whom I'm always in touch with, who I think very highly, Clay Ellis and Catherine Burgess, who are quite well known in Canada, but not here. Some of the local artists said, well, you you're from New York. You have connections. Why don't you write about us?

Karen Wilkin: 01:04:03

Well, the only connection with the publishing world I had at that point was my former professor Barbara Novak's husband, Brian O'Doherty, who at that point was the editor of Art in America. So I got in touch with Brian and said, would you like an article about Western Canadian artists? He said, 2,500 words. Well, I had no idea what that meant. This was not the you know, it didn't show you at the top of your computer screen.

Karen Wilkin: 01:04:30

I mean, this was typing in those days. My first electronic typewriter was a big deal, so I did that. Then I started writing for Arts Canada and all sorts of places like that.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:04:42

Arts International?

Karen Wilkin: 01:04:43

We all wrote for Art International.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:04:45

I see.

Karen Wilkin: 01:04:45

That was the again, everybody. Michael Fried, you name it.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:04:49

It was a beautiful publication.

Karen Wilkin: 01:04:51

It was a beautiful publication. He didn't pay.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:04:55

Really?

Karen Wilkin: 01:04:55

Oh, he would pay eventually. You know. But it was it was prestigious to write for him.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:05:03

Okay. Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:04

No. I was thrilled to write. And and you are

Hrag Vartanian: 01:05:06

Sorry. Who's him? I'm sorry. Mhmm. Who's him for Arts International?

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:09

Jim Jim Fitzsimile.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:05:10

That's it. Okay. Thank you.

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:12

Who I don't think is with us anymore. Right.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:05:14

And so then, you That

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:15

was a rite of passage writing for Art

Hrag Vartanian: 01:05:17

Right. And so then you started writing more and more.

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:21

Well, then I got this phone call from from Abbeville Press and said, would you like to do a book on David Smith? That took me about 30 seconds. Yeah. Because I'd already done an exhibition, called The Formative Years, which was Smith's work of the '30s '40s, which I later discovered was the first time anybody had put Smith's drawings with his sculpture, even though the drawings were very related to the sculpture. I mean, nobody told me not to do it, so I did it.

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:48

You know? So they knew that. That traveled. That came to New York.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:05:52

So then come the nineties. Now what what do you remember in terms of how the art world may have changed in the nineties?

Karen Wilkin: 01:05:59

Well, it became much more polarized.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:06:01

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 01:06:01

You know? There in spite of the fact that that, you know, the watch where, you know, the borders are permeable in terms of materials, in terms of kind of art you're making, and whether it was figurative, whether figurative or abstract or what. It just seemed to be much more of an us, them kind of thing. Maybe generational.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:06:26

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:06:26

You know? I mean, critics do tend to get stuck with their generations.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:06:30

Of course. Sure.

Karen Wilkin: 01:06:31

I am in touch with a lot of younger artists because of teaching.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:06:34

Right. But I'm sure the bulk of the artists you're sort of corresponding with are probably

Karen Wilkin: 01:06:39

But the ones I'm closest to, I mean, some of them who are my generation, like Jill Nathanson, who I think is a terrific painter. Yeah. Fran O'Neill and other a lot of women. Which is nice. And I was lucky enough to know Tom Naskovsky pretty well, whom I admired enormously.

Karen Wilkin: 01:06:58

I know Martin Puryear, not not well, but enough to have a nice conversation with him every now and again.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:07:04

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:07:04

And so, I'm I'm a little peripheral.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:07:08

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:07:08

And that's okay.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:07:09

Yeah. And and so who are some of the artists that have really changed what you do? You know, for you, that really challenged you. And, you know, not necessarily, like, in person, their work challenged you or maybe some idea they put forward. You sort of had a eureka moment later.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:07:26

Who are some of those artists?

Karen Wilkin: 01:07:28

Well, the most recent one is, someone you you probably don't know. African American artist named Clintel Steed.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:07:36

Oh, I know Clintel from the New York Studio School.

Karen Wilkin: 01:07:38

Right. Yes. And Clintel's work always challenges me.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:07:42

I agree. I

Karen Wilkin: 01:07:43

think he's a spectacular painter. He's dealing with you know, I did that show for the, Equity Gallery, which was I had a wonderful time working on that. And, he's so intense, and he's so committed. And his work deals with so many complicated issues, but it's always about painting. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:08:06

And I find he's someone that really, I have to look very hard and I have to think very hard.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:08:12

It's a good one. That's a good one. Any other artists who have challenged, you know, your way of thinking?

Karen Wilkin: 01:08:18

Well

Hrag Vartanian: 01:08:18

Jack Bush sounds like he was probably

Karen Wilkin: 01:08:20

Well, Jack Jack Bush, I just fell in love with those bands.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:08:23

Right. Right. Right. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:08:25

They're series I like better than others, but he's so seductive. Yeah. But, you know, the person whom I may have learned most from was Tony Caro. I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of time with him in the studio. He and his wife, Sheila Girling, a terrific painter.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:08:44

Tony Anthony Caro.

Karen Wilkin: 01:08:45

Yeah. Yep. His wife, Sheila Girling, a wonderful painter who who is virtually unknown in this country, well known in Great Britain. Going to Tony's studio was work. He was not the least bit interested in being told, I think that's a wonderful sculpture.

Karen Wilkin: 01:09:06

He wanted to sit down and look or stand up and look at the ones that he was unsure about. And he wanted opinions and he wanted suggestions. I wasn't the only one he did this with. He did it with Michael Fried a lot. He did it with Willard Buckley.

Karen Wilkin: 01:09:23

He did it with an Irish sculptor who lives in London, wonderful artist called John Gibbons. And he wanted you to work. And he wasn't enough to say, well, what if tell one of his assistants, pick up a piece of steel, hold it up. No. I don't like it at all.

Karen Wilkin: 01:09:42

Take it away. And I learned more in Tony's studio. And, of course, he was someone who never settled for what he knew he could do.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:09:52

Another sculptor. There we are. A sculpture. Yeah. And you liked being challenged that way.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:09:57

Yeah. That's amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 01:09:59

And he, you know, he would change materials. He would he would try things. He said, I don't like doing the same thing. It's too boring.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:10:08

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:10:08

So if you look at his work, he's constantly reinventing himself.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:10:12

Any, other painters or that you can think of?

Karen Wilkin: 01:10:15

Well, I would say to spend time with Ken Noland in his studio was phenomenal. And I also had an opportunity to go around the Matisse show in 92 with him. There were the olden days, there'd be scholars days when the museum was closed and

Hrag Vartanian: 01:10:36

there were a

Karen Wilkin: 01:10:36

small group of us, Bill Agee was one, who were there every time. And sometimes we'd get from 1907 to 190 9 in 4 hours. That was another great learning experience. But I remember going around with Ken, and he he suddenly said, that painting is keyed off of green. That's very unusual.

Karen Wilkin: 01:10:55

I mean, he was looking at paintings in a way that I had never looked at paintings.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:10:58

Right. And how about in terms of video art or installation artists? Anything you know, any relationships, there that you

Karen Wilkin: 01:11:05

Absolutely. Marie Luthier, I think, is brilliant.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:11:08

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:11:09

She's also a very good friend.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:11:11

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 01:11:13

Partly I mean, I I knew her work, but I got to know her because she was married to another fine perceptual painter called Robert Berlind, and Bob and I were an item when I was 17.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:11:27

Got it.

Karen Wilkin: 01:11:29

God. He was gorgeous.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:11:33

So let's let's pass.

Karen Wilkin: 01:11:34

I I find her work ex absolutely mesmerizing. And I did the the, catalog of a show she did called plains of sweet regret, which is her, 6 channel, screen about the depopulation of the Prairies, which an amazing piece. MoMA has an amazing piece of hers that was done about the floods in North Dakota Mhmm. Which they haven't shown in years. Again, multichannel.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:12:02

So now let's fast forward to 21st century because I'm sort of keeping it separate Mhmm. Because I feel like the art world changed a lot this century. And maybe it got so much larger, but also Enormous. Yeah. Compared to what it used to be.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:12:16

Do you wanna sort of share your thoughts on that? Like, what happened then to the artist?

Karen Wilkin: 01:12:22

Sheer bewilderment on my part. I mean, I can I can still visualize a page in the New York Times? Now the New York Times pages used be bigger, as you recall. And we used to have, in elementary school, we were taught how to fold a newspaper so you could read it in public.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:12:39

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 01:12:40

Right. But probably the only really useful thing I learned in elementary school. But, if all the exhibitions were listed in, you know, like, that much space at the bottom.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:12:53

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:12:54

And when Tiburon Denage had its 50th anniversary in 2000, I had a research assistant who brought me copies of reviews of all the shows at Tibor Du Nagy. And Art News, they were sometimes only this big, they reviewed every single exhibition.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:13:13

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 01:13:14

In 1950. So you you couldn't do that. And the the other thing that, brought that home to me was the, late brilliant art historian, Lane Faison, who taught at Williams. And he and Whitney Stoddard were responsible for what was known as the Williams mafia, which were the, all the American Art Museum directors and chief curators who had gone to Williams. I think they're all pretty much gone now.

Karen Wilkin: 01:13:49

They've retired or some have dropped off their purchase. But Williams was all male in those days, and all these guys would come in as pre med jocks, and they'd leave as art historians.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:14:02

That's quite an accomplishment.

Karen Wilkin: 01:14:03

They were Lane was amazing. And when Clement Greenberg stopped writing for The Nation, he, which was in whatever it was, 60 something, he chose Lane Faison as his successor. Lane had been reviewing art books for the magazine. And Lane told me the story, he said, Clem told him and called him and suggested this, and his response was, well, I'm I'm an art historian. I don't know anything about the art of my own time.

Karen Wilkin: 01:14:35

And Clem said, you write about the art of your own time the way you write about any art. And he said, come to come to New York on a Friday. We'll spend the weekend. We'll see everything. And they did.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:14:49

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:14:50

You can't

Hrag Vartanian: 01:14:51

do that anymore.

Karen Wilkin: 01:14:51

Can't do that anymore. Including going to Mercedes Matter's house, Apartment, McDougallalle and where Elaine saw his first, Pollock in the flesh Wow. Which is now in the Yale Art Gallery.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:15:06

Amazing. So how is it like writing about art and curating art this century? Like, how has it changed? I'm very selective. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:15:14

I mean, I I the when people say, well, I'm gonna do Chelsea. I think, are you out of your mind? Quite apart from the size of the enterprise, there's just a very high risk of seeing a lot of really terrible stuff.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:15:30

That's true. That's very true.

Karen Wilkin: 01:15:32

So I, you know, I go see certain things and I know I miss a lot. Sometimes, you know, somebody I have my students in the seminar, before we start talking about whatever we've read, I have them say what they've seen that week. And they often go see very different things than I do, so that's good.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:15:55

Yeah. That is good. Of course.

Karen Wilkin: 01:15:57

Sometimes if I'm intrigued, I'll go, look at that. But the main difference that I see besides just the sheer magnitude, is that it's become all about money and not about aesthetics.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:16:12

Right. You know,

Karen Wilkin: 01:16:13

it's monetary value, not aesthetic value.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:16:17

And so what are some of the things that may have been may have improved in your opinion?

Karen Wilkin: 01:16:22

I'm not sure.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:16:25

Well, certainly, women are getting more attention.

Karen Wilkin: 01:16:28

Women are getting more attention. People of color are getting more attention. I mean, sometimes deservedly. Yep. Sometimes not so deservedly.

Karen Wilkin: 01:16:39

I mean, I am ecstatic that a wonderful abstract painter like James Little was on both floors of the biennial Right. Making some money and finally having the attention that he deserves. Carl Hazelwood is getting a lot of attention.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:16:56

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:16:57

Another, Triangle alum. Those are both Triangle alumni. We're very proud of Hew Locke

Hrag Vartanian: 01:17:05

Oh, yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 01:17:06

Who has become the

Hrag Vartanian: 01:17:07

Of course. Incredible.

Karen Wilkin: 01:17:08

Incredible.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:17:09

Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 01:17:09

He's one of ours. So these these are are they having more attention paid because they are people of color? Maybe. But they're wonderful artists, and they should have that attention paid.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:17:22

Right. Exactly. Very well deserved attention. Right? And And

Karen Wilkin: 01:17:26

McLelland is another alum.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:17:28

So what are what are what are for people who may not know your work, I mean, part of this podcast is sort of for people who may not know your work to be introduced to you, what are some of the books or things you've written or or shows you've curated you'd love them to take a look at that you think is representative of some of the things you've worked on?

Karen Wilkin: 01:17:45

Well, one of the things I'm very proud of is the show I did with my beloved late colleagues, Bill Agee and Irving Sandler. We we worked on a lot of things together. We did a show that we called American Vanguards that was are Sheila Gorky, Stuart Davis, John Graham, William de Kooning, and their circle. Mhmm. 1927, 1942.

Karen Wilkin: 01:18:11

And we were looking at a moment in the history of American art, particularly New York art, that is often not looked at when there was this extraordinary cross fertilization among these young artists. Mhmm. And John Graham turned out to be the glue that was holding them all together. He was the connective tissue.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:18:36

You

Karen Wilkin: 01:18:36

know, every and the way we got interested in this is every time we were working I was working on someone like Stuart Davis or David Smith, or any of the artists of that generation, take a step back, and I'd fall over John Graham.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:18:51

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:18:52

So at that point, we thought we should look at this.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:18:54

Right. Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:18:55

And then I did a John Graham show with Alicia Longwell for the parish where we looked even more deeply. But American Vanguard is something I'm very proud of. I like my Morandi book. Yes. It was the first one in English.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:08

Yep. Amazing.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:10

And it has very good color reproduction.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:11

That's right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:13

And

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:13

you're the person who introduced Morandi's work to me. I'd never I didn't know his work before. Absolutely.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:18

There's a show coming up

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:20

Oh, wow.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:20

In New York. The thing that I I think I'm most grateful for, happy about, I because I write I do reviewing as well as organ I play Both Sides of the Street. I don't write reviews of the shows I organize. I have to say that

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:35

these

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:35

days because conflict of interest is

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:39

It's a funny thing, isn't it?

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:40

Out there. Shall we say?

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:41

Yes. Absolutely.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:42

The other thing one really honorable thing I know about Clem Greenberg is he always said, you don't write about anybody you sleep with.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:50

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:52

I think he was probably true to that.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:19:56

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:19:56

Anyway, the, because I write about all kinds of shows, it means I have to keep my art history chops in order. Mhmm. I also get to exploit all my curator friends.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:20:11

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 01:20:11

And I learn a lot, you know, when I when I walk around with them and talk about the shows.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:20:16

And when you're teaching, you teach a lot about Cezanne. Well, it comes and goes. Yeah. That's right. Okay.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:20:23

Yeah. And who are some of the others? Who are the some of the real sort of touchstones for your teaching?

Karen Wilkin: 01:20:30

Well, because I'm at the studio school, there's a lot of overlap of what I'm interested in and them. Obviously, Piero del Francesca. Yes. Obviously Cezanne. I have them look at a lot of Bernini, which is slightly heretical.

Karen Wilkin: 01:20:49

But this is all in relation to a reading course, which has the pretentious title of words for the wordless. But they start with Cennino, Cennini and a Renaissance handbook, and they go right up to Michael Fried and TJ Clark, and read artists on art. They read Leonardo's notebooks, they read, Baudelaire, They read, Delacroix's journals. But they also read Simon Czama on Bernini. They read all kinds of people, artists writing about art, art historians writing about art, critics writing about art, and it's to give them a sense of the many different ways you can use language, with the aim being they have to write a thesis, which is not an academic thesis.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:21:42

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:21:43

Has to be tangentially related to their work in some way. And as you everybody needs an artist statement these days. And we tell them that if you can write an artist statement that people will read and not wanna throw across the room, if it stays in the pile, your chances of whatever you're applying for are greater.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:22:02

Yeah. There you are. That's so true. So now are there things you wanna talk about that we haven't touched upon?

Karen Wilkin: 01:22:09

Because The thing we haven't touched about is Maine Coon cats, but I'm

Hrag Vartanian: 01:22:12

not sure if that's true. Love of Maine Coon cats.

Karen Wilkin: 01:22:15

Well, I've lived with Maine Coon cats.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:22:18

Yes.

Karen Wilkin: 01:22:19

One of whom is named for Lois Dodd, and I had the pleasure of introducing Lois Dodd, the painter, to, with Lois Dodd, the, to Lois Dodd, the cat.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:22:30

Oh, that's a nice that's a wonderful honor.

Karen Wilkin: 01:22:33

During, the lockdown when everything was virtual

Hrag Vartanian: 01:22:37

Mhmm.

Karen Wilkin: 01:22:38

The one good thing about that was that since I was teaching virtually, we could have these virtual studio visits

Hrag Vartanian: 01:22:44

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:22:45

To places we couldn't get to. Lois spent the lockdown in Maine and did this wonderful session with my students when Lois' cat jumped into my lap so I could introduce them. And Lois' dog is a cat person. It's very nice.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:23:00

That's beautiful. So are there any shows or books that you still haven't been able to write that you're eager to put out into the world? And maybe people who are listening will will

Karen Wilkin: 01:23:11

There are 2 there

Hrag Vartanian: 01:23:12

are

Karen Wilkin: 01:23:12

2 things that if I live long enough, I hope I can still do. 1, I have an application in for funding. I won't know anything about that until November. I'd like to write about the cross fertilization again, that moment of in between and overlap around Bennington in the sixties when Antoni Caro and Jules Olitsky were teaching at Bennington, Ken Noland lived in South Shaftesbury. Robert Motherwell and Helen Frankenthaler visited frequently, so did David Smith.

Karen Wilkin: 01:23:58

And people the painters were making sculpture. The sculptors were having their work painted sometimes by the painters or were making sculpture that was somehow responding to the painters.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:24:13

Was Paul Feeley there too?

Karen Wilkin: 01:24:14

Paul Feeley was teaching at Bennington, but he wasn't part of this group.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:24:18

Got it. Okay.

Karen Wilkin: 01:24:19

So you have, Nolan's stripe paintings profoundly interest influencing Caro's low lying Bennington sculptures. Oh, wow. You have, Smith proposing to Motherwell that they collaborate, and Motherwell saying no because he said he couldn't imagine what an elegy looked like from the side.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:24:42

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 01:24:43

So Smith paints his own elegy on steel and makes his own sculpture. Amazing. Helen does drawings that relate to seeing Smith in the field. So all of this back and forth.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:24:53

Oh, that does sound like a very rich period. Yeah. That's amazing. And how about a book? Any books?

Karen Wilkin: 01:24:59

Well, that is a book.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:24:59

Okay. That's a book. This sounds like an exhibition. That's why.

Karen Wilkin: 01:25:02

It would be a wonderful exhibition, but I think a little expensive.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:25:06

Probably. And how about an exhibition? Is there something?

Karen Wilkin: 01:25:09

Well, another exhibition that probably won't was gonna happen, was Helen Frankenthaler's Source Paintings. All her life, she was looking to old master and modern master painting and painting her own variations on them. I mean, that starts in the fifties. And we were when Helen was still alive, but not in great shape, we were talking about doing this show. The American Federation of Arts wanted to do it.

Karen Wilkin: 01:25:39

Unfortunately, the AFA needs to meet a certain needs to receive a certain amount of money for their work. And, that means you have to have a certain number of venues for a show. And they had a certain number of venues, but one of them was the Museum of Women's Art, which Helen was violently opposed to. Really? When they got going, she wouldn't give them a work.

Karen Wilkin: 01:26:08

They said if they wanted something of theirs hers, they had to buy it.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:26:12

Wow.

Karen Wilkin: 01:26:12

Yeah. She didn't believe in that kind of segregation.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:26:16

Oh, interesting.

Karen Wilkin: 01:26:17

Well, I tend to agree with it, you know. It's like, why should it be a separate category?

Hrag Vartanian: 01:26:22

Right.

Karen Wilkin: 01:26:23

Helen's then husband, Helen at at that point was not making the best decisions. He absolutely vetoed it. Even though someone who was very close to Helen, who had been her assistant for years and I, we sat down and said, you know, there are a lot of women who are getting much more attention than Helen, who are not as good and maybe it's time to move into that. She thought it was okay. And this was someone who had worked for Helen for 30 years.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:26:56

Makes sense.

Karen Wilkin: 01:26:57

But Steve didn't think it was a good idea. I hope that might happen again.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:27:01

I think those both sound like great ideas. So I wanted to, unless there's something you'd like to talk about that we haven't touched upon.

Karen Wilkin: 01:27:10

We've got another 30 years of conversation.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:27:12

I mean, there's so much more we can add, but, you know, I just think you know, I just wanna say that, you know, maybe people may not know, but, you know, you've been so formative for me as as as a writer, as a thinker in different ways because I I wanna say that you've never been prescriptive. And you've always not. No. Well, you know, I think some some professors can be where they try to create mini me's, you know, or the versions of themselves, but I've never felt that with you. I've always felt like you've always encouraged me and others I I've also seen to find their own path.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:27:46

And I just wanna say how rare that is and how amazing that is to feel that connection with somebody who's always you know, you know, I probably done things you may not agree with or ideas I've pursued you've not but you've never judged me for them. And I just wanna say how kind and wonderful that's been. And I just wanna say thank you for kind of showing me, first of all, that there is something called an art critic in the world, and that our art can be something that we can explore with our own, you know, toolbox maybe that, you know, and and you gave me some of those tools. But I just wanna say thank you for that and how what a pleasure it's been.

Karen Wilkin: 01:28:27

I'm very touched to hear this. But, you know, it never occurred to me that there was any other way to do it.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:28:34

Well, there unfortunately is for some people, and I just think it's it just shows your kindness and and your ability to sort of push people to sort of help realize what they want to do without ever feeling like they had to be just like you, which I think probably, you know, listening to your stories just reminds me that, you know, you understand the the value of being able to be yourself.

Karen Wilkin: 01:29:01

Well, I've been lucky in that I spent a lot of time with people who were aggressively themselves in the studio, and I learned a lot from that.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:29:13

Yeah.

Karen Wilkin: 01:29:13

It was exciting to see that.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:29:16

Well, thank you, Karen. And, you. And thank you for this conversation. It's always a delight.

Karen Wilkin: 01:29:21

The pleasure was all mine.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:29:28

Thank you so much for listening. This podcast is edited by producer, Isabella Segalovich, and a quick word from our sponsor, Hyperallergic Members. Hyperallergic is an independent art publication based here in New York, and we pride ourselves in telling it like it is. We're not supported by billionaires. We are not some pet project of a bunch of people who think that they can game the art world.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:29:55

We are the real thing. We do independent journalism trying to get at the crux of the issue, whatever it may be. We're not focused on the art market, we're focused on what artists and people who love art care about. But keep in mind, we can only do this with your support. So we hope you become a Hyperallergic member for only $80 a year, or if you'd prefer, $8 a month.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:30:22

You can help ensure that the art world will be held accountable. And as you heard in this episode, we are very proud to bring you stories that you may not hear anywhere else. And if you'd like to learn more, you can always visit the website, hyperallergic.com. This year we celebrated 15 years of hyperallergic. That's 15 years representing the voices of the 99% and not only the 1%.

Hrag Vartanian: 01:30:54

I'm Haragh Bartanyan, the editor in chief and cofounder of Hyperallergic. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.